31-03-2003 01:02									#1
	Suggested Jungle clearing plans Full PM-box? Change here!

Because we are Industrious, our workers are quicker than other when needed to complete a task. One of the longest tasks to complete is the clearing of Jungle. We will need to do this for several reasons:

1) to provide a kill zone on our boarder, so that an enemy can’t use the jungle for defensive support.

2) to allow some of our cities, current and future, to use the cleared tiles for growth and shields


With our limited number of Workers, we will need to start clearing fairly soon.

First off, some basics:
It takes 1 worker 12 turns to clear 1 jungle tile. It also takes that same worker 5 turns to road a Jungle tile. To get 1 Jungle tile cleared in 1 turn, it would take 12 workers to clear that tile. Of coarse, this isn’t possible, at this point in time. 12 turns is also a bit too long for one tile to be cleared. We will have a large number of Jungle to clear if we want to have productive cities that are in the current Jungle. What to do then?

We do a compromise jungle plan, that uses at this time, 2 workers at the start with a maximum of 10 workers when going "full steam". First off here is the Worker chart:



With 2 workers, it will take 6 turns to clear the jungle and 1 turn to road it afterwards. We can then bring a 1 to 2 worker team in to mine or irrigate afterwards. With movement, each Jungle tile would take 8 turns to be cleared and roaded. If we use more than 2, then we would have problems with a worker who isn’t doing anything during the road phase. If we use 1 worker, then it will take 12 and 2 turns to clear and road (15 turns with movement). 2 workers is a start for now.

Later, we can get another 2 worker team together. Once we have 5 workers for jungle clearing duties, we can do some things a little differently.

With 5 workers, we would have 2 teams, 1 for clearing and 1 for roading, The 2 worker road crew would road the jungle in 3 turns, so in 4 turns (with movement), they would have roaded 1 jungle tile. They move the next tile and do the same again. The clearing crew (3 workers) would then come behind them and clear the tile in 4 turns. So, with 5 workers, over 4 turns, you get 1 Jungle tile that is roaded and 1 roaded jungle tiles that is cleared. Then, if we add 2 more workers (7 total), 1 to the road crew and 1 to the clearing crew, the same would take 3 turns to complete the cycle. At this point, it better to do things a bit differently if we want to add more workers to the crews.

At 10 workers, we should have 2 roading crews of 2 each, 4 turns total roading per crew. We would then have 6 workers for the clearing crew, completing 1 tile clearing in 2 turns. So in 4 turns, you get 2 Jungle tile that is roaded and 2 roaded jungle tiles that are cleared. But this also becomes very worker intensive for clearing Jungle and isn’t that necessary at this point in time.

E_T

	31-03-2003 01:46									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sounds good; should we kidnap some workers from CDG or GCA?

Of course we would need two of theirs to equal just one of ours; I've heard that the GCA and CDG has piss poor workmen attitudes!

	31-03-2003 04:38									#3
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Isn't it better to clear and then road? A two turn net advantage assuming 2 Worker teams?

	31-03-2003 04:58									#4
	Put an end to popups!

If we plan well enough, we can have most necessary jungle tiles cleared/roaded by one Worker. Moving more than one Worker onto an unroaded tile wastes turns unless they are moving onto the tile with their 3rd move (and have nowhere else to go within 3 tiles).

We just have to make sure we're thinking 15 turns ahead. (rather, let Dominae think 15 turns ahead and we can all just agree with him )

	31-03-2003 05:12									#5
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Funny, I was just thinking about Jungle-clearing myself.

I agree with Theseus, I'm not sure building Roads on Jungle is the most efficient way to do this. Running through a couple of tests, I've discovered that Junge-clearing is quite a hairy business. But I'm sure we can work something out without having to Road Jungles instead of Grasslands.

Also, the decisions we make for our Workers will to some extent be dictated by the needs of our cities. We will not be clearing Jungle in a vacuum, so to speak.

I appreciate your comments E_T, and hope we can work on this further. Jungle-clearing will come sooner than we all expect (unfortunately).


Dominae

	31-03-2003 05:30									#6
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Ok, I just figured out (for myself, maybe this is common knowledge to a lot of you here!) a way to clear Jungle without losing wasting too many turns and Worker actions.

It involves 6 Workers, one team of 4, the other of 2. Both start Clear Jungle on turn 1 on seperate but adjcacent Jungle tiles (big team on tile 'A', other on 'B').

1 A: 3, B: 6
2 A: 2, B: 5
3 A: 1, B: 4
4 Big team finishes Jungle at A. 2 Workers from it move to B, the other two Road. B: 3
5 2 new Workers at B Clear Jungle. 2 Workers at A Mine. A (Mine): 2, B (Jungle): 1
6 Jungle at B clear. 2 Workers at B start and finish Road. 1 Worker at B moves to A and completes Mine. 3 Workers remain without orders (if you're counting), so all move to B and to start and finish a Mine there.
7 Workers split into a group of 4 and one of 2, to repeat the process.

So in 6 turns, 6 Workers Clear, Mine and Road 2 Jungle tiles.

Let's do the math:

12 (Clear Jungle, Industrious)
+ 2 (Road, Industrious)
+ 3 (Mine, Industrious)
= 17
*2 (two tiles)
= 34 Industrious Worker-turns

6 Industrious Workers * 6 turns = 36 Industrious Worker-turns.

So overall there is a loss of 2 Worker-turns, from step 4, where 2 Workers switched tiles not connected by a Road.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 31-03-2003 at 05:38

	31-03-2003 05:41									#7
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Dominae, can you re-work that to include movement costs?

I.E., if 6 Workers are on a given tile, next to 2 jungle tiles, what happens?

I agree with Aeson about the waste of team Workers' movements, but I am sure this can be optimized.

	31-03-2003 05:43									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we plan well enough, we can have most necessary jungle tiles cleared/roaded by one Worker. Moving more than one Worker onto an unroaded tile wastes turns unless they are moving onto the tile with their 3rd move (and have nowhere else to go within 3 tiles).

Depending on where we want to put our cities beyond the fifth, this may or may not be true. I was hoping to clear tiles in order to support more cities along the River. The first few tiles will have to be up and running pretty fast (faster than the 17 Worker-turns required to "do everything" to one tile). But you're right that clearing all the Jungle probably will not involve Worker teams. It all depends on where we want to expand.

quote: We just have to make sure we're thinking 15 turns ahead. (rather, let Dominae think 15 turns ahead and we can all just agree with him )

I have to warn you, I'm a horrible Chess player; I can hardly think more than 2 turns ahead!


Dominae

	31-03-2003 05:53									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Dominae, can you re-work that to include movement costs? I.E., if 6 Workers are on a given tile, next to 2 jungle tiles, what happens?

I could, but we've already got the conclusion: it is always more efficient, given enough time, to just put 1 Worker on a given Jungle tile, so as to minimize Worker movement (as Aeson just mentioned). The problem is that we might need some tiles ready faster than 17 turns.

But, to answer your question, if the 6 Workers are not standing on the Jungle on turn 1, then you have to push back the completion date by 1 turn, and you add 6 "wasted" Worker-turns (actually 4, since you always have to move at least 1 Worker onto a given Jungle tile). So, ultimately, the plan I just laid out wastes 40-34=6 Worker-turns compared to just putting 1 Worker to work a Jungle. This is the cost of getting things done fast.


Dominae

	31-03-2003 06:02									#10
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quote: Depending on where we want to put our cities beyond the fifth, this may or may not be true.

We should build workers until the point where it is true.

I tend to think how I'd do things, and with a Merc+Barracks in city 2, and a Granary in city 3... we are not going to be able to keep the clearing pace early on that I envision.

The main thing that will catch us up is to make sure our first jungle cleared is to open up irrigation to the plains. (I'm campaining here for a certain city site) That just about doubles our food tiles with only 5 turns (move onto tile, road, irrigate) needed for each tile.

	31-03-2003 11:26									#11
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Gamecatcher is non-industrious. Maybe we can build a few extra workers and improve their lands for them for a reasonable fee? (say, some gold plus an alliance versus CDG)

	05-05-2003 04:50									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One of the things reasons that I had started this thread, was to lets us start thinking about what we will need to do, especially with a limited number of workers for doing this task. It takes time to get a sizeable team together and to get them organized.

E_T