31-03-2003 23:09									#1
	Message to all A-10 pilots: Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Here's a tip on how to tell friend from foe:

Bad guys:



Good guys:



good luck!

	31-03-2003 23:11									#2
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Hard to tell from the high elevations they have them flying at...

	31-03-2003 23:12									#3
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2901515.stm

quote: Three wounded UK soldiers have described how they survived an attack by a US A-10 Thunderbolt anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles. One of the survivors criticised the US pilot for showing "no regard for human life" and accused him of being "a cowboy" who had "gone out on a jolly".

quote: They said the US pilot apparently failed to recognise that their tanks were a British make, with special coalition identification aids and even a large Union flag on another machine in the five-vehicle convoy.

quote: He said: "I got a letter off my dad the day before the attack and it said 'Be careful, come home soon and watch out for those damn Yanks'. "Looks like he tempted fate a bit there."

	01-04-2003 00:01									#4
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According to the figures given on the TV news this evening US forces have killed 5 British service personnel in friendly fire and Iraqi forces have killed 5 British service personnel (in unfriendly fire!).

I expected the US to score higher than that. Maybe the story of the F16 pilot who fired at the Patriot battery that targeted him is making a few trigger happy people think twice.

	01-04-2003 00:03									#5
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Maybe its the same A10 pilot who shot up the Brit APC's in GW1. Maybe he just doesn't like the Union Jack.

	01-04-2003 01:41									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hard to tell from the high elevations they have them flying at...

A10s fly at high elevation? I thought they were really down-and-dirty, kill 'em with cannon fire type of airplanes.

	01-04-2003 01:51									#7
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Aren't pilots given recognition tests for vehicles? I find it hard, for any height under 10,000 feet, to mistake a Challenger for the T-55's Iraqis would be using in the south, or a Warrior for any type of BMP.

And as frogger said, A-10's don't attack from that high up with thier main gun.

	01-04-2003 01:54									#8
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Don't worry, Brits: it wasn't the A10 pilot's fault. If that isn't clear immediately, the USAF (or whatever branch it was) will hold a rigorous investigation to prove it.

	01-04-2003 01:56									#9
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quote: I find it hard, for any height under 10,000 feet, to mistake a Challenger for the T-55's

Ahem, double check that one. on 10,000 feet you'll see a couple of spots, at best.

	01-04-2003 01:59									#10
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Maybe the brits shouldn't have cheaped out on the GPS transponders, which indictate to attacking airplanes it's a friendly rather than just a normal sight.

IIRC, AH-64Ds and A-10s are both equipped with the technology to classify targets as friend/foe based on radar data and the presense of a friendly transponder...

	01-04-2003 02:00									#11
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Asher, most vehicles in the US army don't have those, IIRC.

It was a funding issue...

	01-04-2003 02:02									#12
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A NATO IFF for AFV's is due to begin testing in 2005.

Just in time for GWIII.

	01-04-2003 02:08									#13
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV According to the figures given on the TV news this evening US forces have killed 5 British service personnel in friendly fire and Iraqi forces have killed 5 British service personnel (in unfriendly fire!).

Acidents outdone both, with 15 Brits killed in vehicle/aircraft crashes.

	01-04-2003 02:14									#14
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It's telling that we didn't see one of these threads when one British Challenger tank shelled another Challenger tank and killed the crew...

	01-04-2003 02:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's telling that we didn't see one of these threads when one British Challenger tank shelled another Challenger tank and killed the crew...

True, but a firefight in the dark with hostile forces is one thing, strafing a friendly armoured column in daylight is another.

	01-04-2003 02:18									#16
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Have any Brits killed any Americans in FF since Korea?

Have any Americans been killed by anybody else's friendly fire since Korea (don't know...but suspect not).

If thje answer's what I think it is then that's probably more telling.

	01-04-2003 02:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV True, but a firefight in the dark with hostile forces is one thing, strafing a friendly armoured column in daylight is another.

Both the Brits and Americans have adequate nightvision.

And you'd think a Brit Challenger crew might be more familiar with the location and looks of another Challenger tank than a US Airforce pilot...

	01-04-2003 02:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Have any Brits killed any Americans in FF since Korea?

Why do we need to specify killing of Americans?
The Brits have had many other Brit FF incidents already in Iraq...

	01-04-2003 02:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Maybe its the same A10 pilot who shot up the Brit APC's in GW1. Maybe he just doesn't like the Union Jack.

I know they were still finding japanese soldiers on pacific islands after WW2 who thought the war hadn't ended, but surely news has got out about the War of Independence......

	01-04-2003 02:29									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Maybe the brits shouldn't have cheaped out on the GPS transponders, which indictate to attacking airplanes it's a friendly rather than just a normal sight.

Don't know if it's gps but they got something, according to the article:
"All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They've said if you put this kit on you won't get shot."

What I find so disturbing here is that the A-10 circled and did a second attack, killing one of the soldiers. He must feel really bad right now

The civilians who watched probably thought it was an Iraqi plane..

	01-04-2003 02:35									#21
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"Boys and their toys...."

	01-04-2003 02:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And you'd think a Brit Challenger crew might be more familiar with the location and looks of another Challenger tank than a US Airforce pilot...

How long do you have/need to identify a barely visible tank charging at you before you decide to pull the trigger? How long do you have/need to identify a tank in broad daylight when you are in a plane at 5,000 feet?

	01-04-2003 02:39									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch How long do you have/need to identify a barely visible tank charging at you before you decide to pull the trigger? How long do you have/need to identify a tank in broad daylight when you are in a plane at 5,000 feet?

..so how can a tank 'charge' at a plane at 5,000 ft?

	01-04-2003 02:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch How long do you have/need to identify a barely visible tank charging at you before you decide to pull the trigger?

A lot more than you do in a jet airplane, no?

quote: How long do you have/need to identify a tank in broad daylight when you are in a plane at 5,000 feet?

...moving at 500mph.

	01-04-2003 02:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever ..so how can a tank 'charge' at a plane at 5,000 ft?

I never said it could.

I think you have missed my point.

	01-04-2003 02:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Asher A lot more than you do in a jet airplane, no? ...moving at 500mph.

Do you agree that the US aircraft should have taken the time to identify its target? After all it was in no direct danger.

	01-04-2003 02:46									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I never said it could. I think you have missed my point.

sorry, i am indeed a complete muppet, it's amazing what a few cans of beer can do......my apologies

	01-04-2003 02:48									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Do you agree that the US aircraft should have taken the time to identify its target? After all it was in no direct danger.

In retrospect, of course.

But I disagree about your no direct danger remark, A-10s fly low to the ground and are succeptible to groundfire, shoulder-launched missiles, etc.

It saw a combat vehicle, thought it was an enemy, destroyed it.

In Retrospect, he should have waited to realize it was not an enemy.

But I don't think it's any worse than the Brit Tank blowing another Brit Tank up...

	01-04-2003 02:51									#29
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theres been a lot made in the UK press that the tank crew were lucky the A10 pilot didn't use his missiles, does anyone have an idea why not? more fun to straff..?

	01-04-2003 02:52									#30
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever theres been a lot made in the UK press that the tank crew were lucky the A10 pilot didn't use his missiles, does anyone have an idea why not? more fun to straff..?

Missiles cost a lot more, and the A10s gun (depleted uranium shells, IIRC they're classified by the UN as WMD) is just as effective in ripping apart tanks.