01-04-2003 11:45									#1
	Neutrals in a WW2 scenario Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Currently I am still working on my WW2 scenario, where two different neutral countries will occur. One will be the countries which will be overrun soon by German troops as e.g. Poland, Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Jugoslavia and Greece shown as Barbarians. The other neutral country will be Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Turkey. The "Barbarians" will only have defensive units and some fighters. As the other neutral country (Spain, Ireland, etc.) will not actively take part in WW2 should it also have offensive units like a small tank, fighters and ships or are some defensive units sufficient ? This would save me some units for the more important countries.

	01-04-2003 14:25									#2
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It should the other way around. Countries that actually fought in the war should have some offensive power,albeit limited, while countries such as Turkey and Spain that had no effect on the outcome should lack any sort of it.

	01-04-2003 14:33									#3
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Thats what I thought:
Neutrals 1 (Poland, Netherlands, Denmark, etc) only defensive units
Neutrals 2 (Spain, Portugal, Ireland, etc) defensive units and some offensive units.
All other nations like USA, GB, Germany, Russia, etc. all kind of units.

The question is: Should Neutrals 2 also have offensive units or not.....

	01-04-2003 16:14									#4
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I think they should have some units to do attacks. As we all know Portugal and Spain were in discussions with the Germans and they might have joined the Axis. So in my opinion countries like Spain could have an impact on the war therefore should have the opportunity to do so.

	01-04-2003 19:33									#5
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I'd give both a combination of attack and defence units.
Just becouse, for instance Spain was never attacked, does not mean they wouldn't have been able to attack forces entering their territory (or for that matter that they wouldn't have been able to attack one of thier smaller neighbors if things had gone differently).

EDIT: As I just noticed Reinhard Baer allready pointed out partially

	01-04-2003 21:07									#6
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R-B is right. The same for Turkey.

	01-04-2003 21:16									#7
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I say the second Neutral civ shouldn't have offensive units for two reasons:

1. Since new units can be built in any of the Neutral civ's cities, you're units can't be specific to one region like Spain or Ireland. You could place the units there at the start, and provide events to generate more, but without the ability to make new ones there's less of a reason to.

2. If these units can attack, they will move around more and try to attack enemies. The biggest problem would be in Ireland, which in a lot of WW2 maps is connected to England. So unless you are trying to have some far out things happen, I would just leave them some defensive units.

Someone brought up the possibility that Allied civs could attack these Neutrals and they wouldn't be able to defend themselves. Units with a defensive role can still attack, can't they? You can prevent human players from doing this with a simple house rule. The Allies have other fish to fry anyway. Then make all civs at peace with these Neutrals, and that none of the Neutral civ's cities are objectives.


From your post you don't plan on these countries doing much of anything, so save the unit slots and event space.

	02-04-2003 04:24									#8
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It also helps to keep your "neutrals" neutral if you give them the Eiffel Tower.

I did this in Age of War specifically to keep Spain present, and called it Spanish Neutrality. If not human-controlled, it tends to keep Spain out of the fighting as much as possible. It's not foolproof, but it does help. It could easily be used for neutrals.

	02-04-2003 07:35									#9
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That's a slick trick, Exile! Keep the ideas coming.

	02-04-2003 11:30									#10
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OK, I will reduce the units to a minimum. Currently the neutrals have several units: one PZL 24 fighter, one Infantry, one IZ Panzerwagen and as all nations three different defense units (1939, 1941, 1943).
Maybe I will kick out the Panzerwagen.

OK, one more question. Which country flag should I use. Currently following flags are in use:

Neutrals 1 = Spanish flag (Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Turkey)
Neutrals 2 = Polish flag (Poland, Denmark, Norway, Netherland, Jugoslavia, Greece)

	02-04-2003 14:09									#11
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Greek flag for Neutrals 2!

	02-04-2003 14:12									#12
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I can imagine why......

	02-04-2003 23:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Greek flag for Neutrals 2!

Should realistically be a white flag ...

>ducks<

	03-04-2003 00:41									#14
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Is Finland going to be in this scenario?

	03-04-2003 10:22									#15
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Unfortunately not. Scandinavia is only represented by Denmark (3 cities), Norway (about 4 cities) and Sweden (about 3 cities). The scen plays mainly in Europe. Maybe I can post a map this evening.

	03-04-2003 17:21									#16
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quote: Is Finland going to be in this scenario?

quote: Unfortunately not... The scen plays mainly in Europe.

This is begging for an Ottok post!

	03-04-2003 17:41									#17
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OK,OK, my mistake. Finland belongs of course to Europe. But unfortunately it is not included in the used map. Sorry. Only the very southern part of the scandinavian countries.

	03-04-2003 23:42									#18
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Here you can see the map of the "Blitzkrieg" Scen with the southern part of Scandinavia. Sorry, no Finland.

Attachment: scen.gif
This has been downloaded 109 time(s).

	04-04-2003 00:57									#19
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quote: Unfortunately not. Scandinavia is only represented by Denmark (3 cities), Norway (about 4 cities) and Sweden (about 3 cities). The scen plays mainly in Europe. Maybe I can post a map this evening.

damn!

	02-05-2003 17:36									#20
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Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Sweden and Turkey and Ireland on the same side?

Wouldn't it be interesting if they would potentially have a chance to get allied along with the Axis?

The scenario sounds promising, so keep it up.

	06-05-2003 23:19									#21
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Avtually, you SHOULD give Poland and he other countries offensive units, but make them obsolete. In 1939 Poland had one of the largest armies in Europe and was, accordingly feared by all of the other nations in Europe.
The Germans even constructed a plan in case of a Polish counet-offensive, and the Polish themselves boasted that they could do so in the first days of the war, until the army was trapped and miserably massacred in the Visla curve.
Yugoslavia also had an army, althought an antiquated and traitor-filled one.
The armies of the Scandianvian states were smaller and badly equipped.
On the other hand, the Belgians fought bravely with their petty Renault tanks and one major fortress.
You should give the Poles a Kulan unit(the famed Polish cavalry[grins slyly]), some fighet planes positioned along the border in airfields and some motorized infantry.
The greeks shouls get some partisan and british units and the Yugoslavs infantry, a few cannnons and a warship or two.

	07-05-2003 00:10									#22
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quote: the Belgians fought bravely with their petty Renault tanks and one major fortress.

The Belgians should be in, but unfortunately, the one major fortress was captured by a few hundred German fallshirm-jägers and didn't do much.
We did however manage to hold out 18 days if I'm correct ...

	07-05-2003 10:57									#23
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Well, the neutrals (Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Ireland) will not have any offensive units. In all cities, strongpoints are situated so that a conquest of these cities is really hard. On the other hand, countries which will be very quick overrun by the germans as (Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Poland, Yugoslavia and Greece) will have in the beginning strong defense units in their cities and only one infantry for smaller counter attacks.

And the reason for this is very simple. As I only want to have one unit file, I have to save units. The main actors are Germany, US/GB, France, Italy, Russia of course and Axispartner (Romania/Hungary) and I do not have so many units to equipe the others well. But I think they will be overrun in about 4-5 turns