03-04-2003 03:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Would it be faster for you if the screenshots were posted online instead of sent via email? Now that we have the capacity to do that....would also be good for people gone for a while, a way to catch up quickly, since, in my case with hotmail, one email overloads the inbox and nothing else gets through.

I would LOVE to have screenshots on the forum! Opening the screenshot emails takes around 10 minutes, and now that I say that it doesn't seem too bad, but it's frustrating enough that I almost never do it.

Plus, the vast majority of my internet time is *gasp* not from home, but rather, well, umm, from 9am to 6pm... you get the idea.

-Arrian

	03-04-2003 03:36									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Arrian, our military situation hasn't changed drastically the past 2 weeks or so. Currently, we are at 3 vet WC 2 vet spear 2 vet warrior 8 reg warrior 12 worker 1 settler and we're building 1 warrior and 1 WC in barrack cities, ready in 2 turns. DeepO

Ok, so we don't really have an army. That's what I thought.

At this point, I'd like to stop building warriors. We're not gonna get much mileage out of swordsmen. Let's throw all our shields at either spearmen or WCs! We need a bunch more of both. A bunch more.

Money may be a problem. Without Leo's, the upgrades are gonna be hugely expensive. 15 knights from WCs is 1500 gold! Add in 600 for warrior -> med inf. That's 2100!

Hence Aeson's thread about saving gold now, I guess

-Arrian

	03-04-2003 03:37									#33
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Great to see all the comments! I'll post a poll about actually going to war, under the "nothing unexpected" condition...



About our situation with Vox, i havn't updated the logs , but i did mentioned this in the appropriate turn thread- i did sent a note to Beta telling him that we had sent the techs, and expect MT- he replied with approval, and also noted that Jon Miller will get back to me about future tech arrangement- nothing since then. If they claim our agreement is still in effect than that's hypocrisy- we've repeatedly told them we want to renegotiate, without much response- the way i see it, our agreement is expired, or about to (under the 10 turns expiration rule- not to mention Vox's lack of cooperation in the last 15 or so turns).

It seems you all want a rather large army- and i can't agree more, but it seems there is an interest in harnessing the
GA for aquaducts and the like- we must make compromises i guess. Adding workers to productive cities is not out of question, but hurts growth in other cities...

What kind of force are we aiming for- i think the question should be divided to two: offensive force, and defensive- since our border is relatively thin, and the possibilities of coastal landing near our core is a big one- the two fronts will be seperated and so we'll have to do our preparations accordingly.

Another thing- have you considered outposts? This gives us a 4(!) tile vision range on mountains: one on the coastal mountain next to Diss. would partically eliminate the threat of suprise attack from the west- one worker might be worth it.

	03-04-2003 04:37									#34
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I'd like to have a discussion thread specifically on the advantages and disadvantages of attacking Vox for a few days before we have a poll on it. I know we've been talking about the matter off and on for a long time on half a zillion threads, but it seems like it would be useful to have a thread focused specifically on the issue. In the meantime, we can build toward a military capacity sufficient to do the job if we decide a war makes sense.

Nathan

	03-04-2003 17:58									#35
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Hmm... Nathan's got a point- a discussion thread instead of a poll would make sense.

Now- about the money for upgrades: would you like to check what we could get out of Feudalism? We than can decide what we put into the research effort.

	06-04-2003 02:41									#36
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Question: should we prioritise Leo's, starting a prebuild as soon as needed? It looks like we are going to face pikes in only a couple of turns, it's kind of obvious that we need to go in with knights, or that we will need them in the near future. Upgrading seems the obvious way of getting knights fast, so Leo sounds perfect in this case; it would safe us a lot of cash.
We can be sure, however, that other teams will like the wonder too.

DeepO

	06-04-2003 03:02									#37
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I would prefer to start working on Leo's immediately after we're done with the Pyramids; rushing a library or something in between in one turn by disbanding a reg warrior and cash-rushing the rest is fine, but I'd like us to start working on Leo's immediately afterwards.
As much as I like the Colossus, I think we're going to have to give it up if we're serious about Leo's (which we should be IMHO, if we're serious about taking on Bob one day).

	06-04-2003 03:10									#38
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Not necessarily, Shiber, Tempest should give us 30 shields per turn in our GA too, IIRC. or was it EotS? anyway, there are a couple of options to go for it, if others aren't prebuilding already, I doubt they'll get that far.

However, 2 or 3 teams are going to enter their GAs pretty soon too, if war would break out on Bob.

DeepO

	06-04-2003 04:05									#39
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I'd rather us use enough of our GA's production bonus to build adequate army- going after Leo's is a worthy project, especially in our situation: WC to knights upgrades, but using the GA for this, improvements in major cities, aqueducts and military buildup just seems like too much- even for our succesful productive empire.

One thing i do believe is that Leo won't be in time for an attack on Vox- delaying the attack for too long is not the right thing to do IMO, as changing political circumstances might also make such venture more problematic.

We stand only several turns before our GA- and still have no specific plan for military buildup, we should test various ideas: more military, more improvements, with Leo and without it (or with various levels of investment).

Last edited by zeit on 06-04-2003 at 04:54

	06-04-2003 09:14									#40
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Could anyone who is more familiar with the hard facts tell me how many shields per turn Hurricane can produce during the GA and outside the GA?
I'm thinking that if we only have to delay our war ETA by 5 or 8 or so turns, in exchange for half-priced upgrades, then it's worth it.

Last edited by Shiber on 06-04-2003 at 09:39

	06-04-2003 09:57									#41
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Hurricane can produce 30 shields per turn throughout the GA, but will only be at 27 for the first 7 or so turns because the Collosus doesn't need the extra production. To produce 30 shields per turn, Hurricane runs a -1 food deficit. We should have ~36 food in the box by the time the Collosus is built. That covers the rest of our GA, and ~13 more non-GA turns. After the GA ends, Hurricane produces 20 shields per turn as long as we can run the -1 food deficit, then drops to 17.

EotS will be at 30 shields per turn, as will Tempest. By mid GA, Arashi hits 20 shields per turn. Tornado and Bolderberg both spend most of the GA at 15 shields per turn. Typhoon at 10.

I wouldn't mind seeing one of our big 3 going for Leo's, after at least a Marketplace and Library. EotS would be the best bet, as it will keep Tempest hidden from view for longer. I don't think Leo's will play much part in our war with Vox, 600 shields = 8 Knights and a bit, which combined with our other forces would probably be enough to take out Vox with. Leo's will be valuable throughout the rest of the game though. Sun Tzu's is another good one.

A 7 turn Collosus is just too good to pass up IMO. Hurricane could probably still beat at least GoW's prebuild to any wonder after that, but a Marketplace/Library/University would be in order first. By then it could start building Copernicus.

	06-04-2003 20:49									#42
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A Colossus in Hurricane followed by improvements and Leo's in EotS sounds wonderful. Are there any drawbacks, other than having to delay improvements in the city that builds Leo's?
I think that building Leo's in time for the war against Vox and saving on the knights upgrades and then building libraries and marketplaces beats the advantages of building the latter first, but this is only a feeling; am I right?

	06-04-2003 23:52									#43
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We'd have to postpone our war on Vox until after our GA to do so. 600 shields is 20 turns at 30 per... so it would take all of our GA to build it. That's why I don't think it will play a part in any war on Vox. If we are going to hit them, it sounds like it would be in the next 10-15 turns, when they start a war on BOB. Diplomatically and strategically that would be the best timing.

	07-04-2003 00:35									#44
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Sounds very reasonable. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, and luckily, there's still time before we have to make the final decision.

	07-04-2003 03:24									#45
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Leo or Sun Tsu sound very well, and with that production we can certainly put a city aside for it.

Going for Vox first is something else... can we really build enough troops in the next 10 turns to take out Vox, assuming they don't have pikes? 10 pikeless turns should be easier to get diplomatically then 15...

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:44									#46
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7 turn NDA + 7 turns to finish research (if we choose to delay it) gives us basically the turns we need to take and hold Vox's Iron crossroad.

Diplomatically, that's why I suggest we give Vox an offer which is better than what we are giving anyone else, but which we can expect to be refused. If we offer them Feudalism and they don't accept the offer, it doesn't really look like we are going to hit them. If they do happen to accept, we've got a better deal that we would have otherwise, and t heir coffers will be mostly dry due to the cash they are sending us.

I'd hope they don't accept it, but if they do at least we are ahead of where we would be if they accepted a lower price.