01-04-2003 21:42									#1
	Plans for Military Buildup: "Operation Steel Storm" Got spare money?

Now, although this was obviously mentioned at the Spartan Thoughts threads, i guess it's purpose was to be used as: When how and with what- to do war, and that a different thread will be dedicated to making concrete plans of military buildup, which is becoming a necessity, with or without war on Vox or anyone else at this time. Our GA is getting near, and we all agree that we would use it to make a record in the speed of building an army!

But we need plans, and we need them quickly. I'm not a tactician nor an economist, but i do realize the importance of making plans in advance, and not rushing with hot issues after waiting for the last moment to make decisions.

Theusus thought about making "purchase requests" from the economists, but i think it's best we try to reach a holistic plan that would take into account oiur entire situation- the economical, the time limits and of course the military needs and how the tactical school sees them. Alot of ideas have flown around- with WC, without them, regulars to vets ratio, upgrading against building and so forth. I think what we should do is work on this Steel Storm program: the exact composition of troops- which city builds which units, how much money we need to hoard for upgrades and other important issues which i'm sure you all know better than me.

After this plan is made, it should be tested in-game, and than perhaps revised to change it if necessary. I see this as our main project, besides diplomatic preparations for war with Vox- if we want one. So the sooner we start on this, the better.

Oh, and just my two cents: don't forget galleys, i think we'll need at least two or three...

	02-04-2003 19:34									#2
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Do we realistically believe we can hit Vox before they get pikemen for defense? I doubt it. Therefore, I think we will need Knights.

There are two main options that I see, then:

1) that our GA-boosted research be directed straight at Invention. Get Leo's, upgrade WC's to Knights, Kill.

2) IF we think we can take Vox without a large WC -> Knight upgrade, then perhaps going for Leos is a waste. Perhaps our GA should be used to shoot for Theology instead, for the Sistine (with us being religious and all) and Education for universities. Granted, the Sistine isn't nearly as important in this game as I'm used to it being, since it's Chieftain and happiness concerns are a joke, but nabbing the Sistine would essentially mean such concerns are nonexistent.

So, do we think we can take down Vox with a hand behind our back (use GA primarily for building, with only partial devotion to war prep), or do we favor the "whole hog" approach of going for Leos and a WC -> Knight upgrade of perhaps 20-25 units?

-Arrian

	02-04-2003 19:47									#3
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If we wait for Leo's, we might take too long, won't we?

I mean, Vox will only get stronger, while we we use our GA to boost ourselves, waiting some time afterwards might be just the time for them to raise defenses.
We can use Med. Inf. instead of knights, while we do our best to deny Vox of Feudalism for as long as possible. If we do this in time, i think we could take Vox with relatively small force, but if we wait around, we might miss our chance and have to deal with a stronger and better prepared enemy...

	02-04-2003 21:03									#4
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It might be best to hit relatively early just to prolong Vox's life. The isthmus is set up perfectly as a kill zone for Immortals. We just set up camp on that hill and kill everything that wanders by. Vox's territory is going to be so much more productive for us if we get a Leader.

Of course, we need a navy to do this right. Can't have Vox dropping units off from the coast. 3 Galleys on each coast placed right can mean Vox would have to attack with their Galleys just to try to get around us. 6 Galleys is a good number to shoot for in our GA.

	02-04-2003 22:58									#5
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I mean, Vox will only get stronger,

I wouldn't bet on that. With the way they're wasting workers on colonies and settlers on cities that need to be disbanded (and we all know how much population is precious to desert-dwelling Vox. Every wasted pop point sets them back by several turns), and don't seem to be improving any tiles south of the isthmus or setting up new cities (except for their short-lived beachhead city on Bob), I don't think they'll be going anywhere far in the near to middle future.
I don't like to underestimate my enemies, but let's face it - Vox have been making some very bad and costly decisions lately.

	02-04-2003 23:49									#6
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quote: Do we realistically believe we can hit Vox before they get pikemen for defense? I doubt it. Therefore, I think we will need Knights.

We can cut off their Iron rather easily before then if we want to. We could take up to the bottleneck safely and easily within 15 turns. Less if we want to dedicate ourselves to it. Originally I played out a situation where I think we'd be safe hitting them by 710BC (cutting off their Iron and taking Dissidentville that turn). That's before even we could research Feudalism.

We could have 4 WC's and 2 Horsemen (minus what we lose taking Dissidentville, probably 1 Spear to kill), and 5 Swordsmen at the Iron crossroad before they could get Immortals down to it. Grog would 'cut off' the Iron (read: stand on the crossroads) the first turn of course.

	03-04-2003 00:14									#7
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Vox keeps on stalling- Beta wrote (on his note confirming the tech exchange which i didn't log) Jon will get back to me shortly- but that remains to be seen, meanwhile, our clock is ticking...

Do we want a two phased warfare? perhaps so. Taking the Voxian Iron is just too tempting and would bring Vox's dangerous potential to almost zero.

Besides, we should prepare the military no matter when we want to use it- we better have the capability. I don't think this team would be tempted to follow the: "Since we have an army, let's use it" war-making doctrine.

So, if we're talking about an early 15-turn strike, what is the size of forces we would need, what about the core's defense? and on what timescale?

I thought Typhoon could start working on a galley after the temple- we don't want to wait for harbors, right?



Now, I think some more economists and tacticians should comment here. C'mon people, we're planning for war here!

	03-04-2003 00:18									#8
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I wouldn't be surprised if Vox has quite a number of immortals already, and more warriors standing by. If they would be planning an 'invasion' of Bob while defending their lands, we would meet more defenders then we expect. Plus, because we are playing unpredictable humans, my feeling would be to take another 5 units over any reserve already planned, just in case. All we know, Vox will be cash rushing units in Dissidentville...

DeepO

	03-04-2003 00:28									#9
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Put yourself in Vox's shoes. 10 units blitz their way up to the chokepoint, cutting off your Iron. What do they do with their Immortals?

Our GA starts with the Pyramids (or WC victory if we miss it), at which point we can produce a Pike, Sword, or Horse every turn in 2 cities (would want to build a Barracks in Tempest first, 2 turns). EotS can produce a Spear or WC a turn, Tornado and Bolderberg are at 10 shields per turn, shortly to 15. We don't need a whole lot of units to keep our territory safe as we have several turns warning on each coast (especially once we get to the chokepoint), and the ability to build up and position a force in the time we have warning.

Worst case, Vox clears their cities of Immortals, has 2-3 Galleys (I think they only have one, given how long it took them to vacate BOB) and sends them to hit us. If they do that, we take their territory and fight a holding war in our own in the interim. By the time their Galleys can get to us, we can match their Immortals with Swords, Spears, and Horses that we produce in the time they spend travelling to us.

Also, with the road network set up, our fast movers up North can beat Vox's Galleys to any spot in our empire.

	03-04-2003 00:28									#10
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That's why we better use a quick assault of the Iron- If we wait they'll just have more and mroe Immortals- but as soon as we strike their Iron we leave them with nothing besides spearmen for defense and archers for offense- and no upgrading capabilities- meaning plenty of useless warriors (if they stocked any).

	03-04-2003 00:37									#11
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True... if we wait until our GA starts, we should be able to defend our territory purely on 'future forces'. I'm a bit hesitant to do that, though, e.g. RP could decide to check how long it takes for their galleys to reach our coast.

Don't get me wrong, Vox should be an easy target for us, even if other teams decide to lend them a hand (getting iron in a deal would certainly be an option, I think more teams would be willing to practically give it to them if it means immortals against GS). But I'm getting kind of cautious when it comes to human-human war.

I'm not sold on two parts of your plan, though: 1) moving Grog onto the road before declaring war (as he is kind of in Vox's territory by the border deal) and 2) how we should be able to diplomatically start a war honorably with a team we currently have a close connection with. I definately think we need to discuss this further (in another thread)

DeepO

	03-04-2003 00:47									#12
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Well, a WC/Horseman from our northernmost city site, on roads, could make it to the Iron crossroads the same turn as well, assuming we have one left after Dissidentville falls. I would guess we'd have 3 left with full movement (with 1 or 2 injured, 1 lost in the attack) if we do send 6 WC/Horsemen up there.

So really, Grog isn't important unless things go terribly wrong. They would have up to 2 spears in Dissidentville (+ anything we see move down there).

Vox has given us a reason that will play well with most the other civs... they plan to resettle BOB. Also, GoW and ND might be interested in getting Vox's capitol away from their far flung cities to avoid potential culture flipping problems.

	03-04-2003 01:09									#13
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I definately prefer using a WC instead of Grog, just for diplomatic sake.

As to Vox being a problem for Bob: that can be one of the subreasons, but won't be enough to convince others we play honorably... in theory, we have a deal going, which we can't simply stop. Breaking that won't be good, no matter what excuse we invent.
DeepO

	03-04-2003 01:15									#14
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I thought we were negotiating to end the deal. It was never meant to be eternal right? If we sign a gpt deal with them, then you're right... but luckily they don't seem to like the idea.

	03-04-2003 01:18									#15
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Might be best to wait until they do try and settle BOB again. Gives us time to build up, and ties up their Immortals elsewhere.

Would it be alright to ask Vox what their timeframe for settling BOB again would be?

	03-04-2003 01:21									#16
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I agree, we've made it perfectly clear that our former deal is over. Should Vox be rude enough to claim on the public forum that we broke a deal, we could reply saying that we've made it perfectly clear that the tech arrangement is over and that besides, they got the better part of the deal.

quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we sign a gpt deal with them, then you're right... but luckily they don't seem to like the idea.

...failing to realize that by making themselves useless to us, they are sealing their own fate.

	03-04-2003 01:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I definately prefer using a WC instead of Grog, just for diplomatic sake. As to Vox being a problem for Bob: that can be one of the subreasons, but won't be enough to convince others we play honorably... in theory, we have a deal going, which we can't simply stop. Breaking that won't be good, no matter what excuse we invent. DeepO

Vox has already set the precedent with their treatment (both ways) of Lux.

Add the Bob misadventure

Add the tech stalling

Add the cheap war by ND/GoW on Lux

Add the fact that Bob has similar feelings towards Vox as we have


There will have to be propaganda of course. But I think the only ones we really need to focus on is Lego. After all, Bob has thought for sometime that we would go to war, why not give them the show they've been expecting?

We don't need the assassination of a Grand Duke or anything here.

	03-04-2003 01:29									#18
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Oh and:


According to the last communique from Vox, they are working on some move on Bob. If that is soon, then we can just choose sides, if you will.

Of course, it will be stickier if they ally with GoW against ND.

Wow, that would be....interesting, an alliance with ND against Vow and GoW.

OTOH, I don't see Vox as being able to contribute much to such a war effort

	03-04-2003 01:33									#19
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If GoW allies with Vox against ND then I would definitely vote to stay neutral... unless we get a very tempting offer from ND or RP.

	03-04-2003 01:40									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber If GoW allies with Vox against ND then I would definitely vote to stay neutral... unless we get a very tempting offer from ND or RP.

Yes, I would only join an alliance that was already in existence, would not want to be the first partner.

But honestly, I can't see ND allying again with anyone from Bob, as they seem to be somewhat isolationist, probably due to the forums.

What would be nifty is if there was a crazy agreement for Vox, to join a war against ND in exchange for GoW, RP declaring war on us.

But seriously, what would Vox be able to offer the continent as an ally? They don't have iron to give GoW. They don't have horses. Immortals are very slow and the front will be a decent distance from Voxland. And they are instable as ****, who would voluntarily ally with them? (oh right, us, kind of ) If something was brewing on Bob, they would be far more likely to contact us.

	03-04-2003 01:45									#21
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I am not so sure they know the deal is over, I can't remember to see any official message saying "the previous deal is off" from us. I wonder how Vox sees it, because that's what counts. We have just given them 3 techs, without even sending them any message before that, and received their tech again with minimal communication. Nothing indicates to them the deal is off.

I agree it is certainly not eternal, but wasn't a limited NAP included in the last deal, where we promised not to attack them for 10 turns after deal's end? If so, we've got a problem.

As to timing it with settlement of Bob: sure, why not. They know that risk, GF has even outright told them last time that GS was not going to sit still if Bob declared war on Vox. Even better would be to wait 2 or 3 turns into settlement, so we are sure all their units are up North. But we can't ask them for an eta, that would be rise suspicion

DeepO

	03-04-2003 01:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel They don't have iron to give GoW.

Not sure on that one, asleep. Before they knew the iron source which they currently have a colony built on, they said to us they had access to iron. I always wondered whether that meant the iron we see, or some iron source on the part of their lands we have not explored yet.

DeepO

	03-04-2003 01:53									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Not sure on that one, asleep. Before they knew the iron source which they currently have a colony built on, they said to us they had access to iron. I always wondered whether that meant the iron we see, or some iron source on the part of their lands we have not explored yet. DeepO

Ah good point.

A lot of discussion in the other thread was centered around cutting off their colony and their iron. If this were true, then the war plans should be adjusted accordingly.

We could look at an old save (pre-colony) to see if they had anything hooked up, but even then, they could have just been sitting on it.


Query-why waste an extremely valuable worker on a colony on a resource you already had? I suppose they could trade it to GoW, but....

	03-04-2003 02:02									#24
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Trading iron to GoW would certainly be an option, but even then, the colony is strange. I was assuming it was their only iron source too, but it's possible there's something else going on, as it would mean they weren't very clear the first time we discussed it. And that wouldn't surprise me of Vox...

DeepO

	03-04-2003 02:09									#25
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I think they said they had Iron up north because they were afraid we would just take them out if they told us how vulnerable their only source was. Could be wrong, but the Colony doesn't make sense to me any other way. They needed Iron ASAP, and so built a road through jungle to get to a Mountain to build a colony... instead of just roading a Mountain in their own territory (takes half the worker turns, is more easily defendable, and saves the worker)?

	03-04-2003 02:15									#26
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Didn't they say a long while back that they had a northern source? They could have been lying, of course, but I consider them incompetant - not deceitful.

Anyway, fighting a limited war is also a possibility (fighting to the isthmus and holding there), but I'd rather go for the neater, if more expensive, full-blown conquest.

Also, despite my low opinion of Vox's abilities, even the best laid plan doesn't survive contact with the enemy. Therefore, I would argue that whatever troop strength we think we need should be augmented by 50% (so if we "need" 10 fast attackers, I want 15).

I want overwhelming force, fellas. If things go well and we win easily, maybe we ended up wasting some shields or gold on too many military units. But that PALES in comparison to what happens if it turns out we didn't bring enough firepower to the party.

-Arrian

p.s. I'm sorry to admit it, but I actually have no sense of our current military order of battle. My computer takes FOREVER to view the screenshots (modem connection), so I don't view them very often, and I was away all last week. So anyway, how many troops do we have, and what have we got in production?

	03-04-2003 02:21									#27
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Arrian, our military situation hasn't changed drastically the past 2 weeks or so. Currently, we are at
3 vet WC
2 vet spear
2 vet warrior
8 reg warrior
12 worker
1 settler

and we're building 1 warrior and 1 WC in barrack cities, ready in 2 turns.

DeepO

	03-04-2003 02:26									#28
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Oh, and I knew you would be going for the "my continent" strategy, and this case I fully agree

Which makes me think, does everybody agrees that if there are no unforeseen things, we take on Vox first? Do we need to poll that to make it official?

DeepO

	03-04-2003 02:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian p.s. I'm sorry to admit it, but I actually have no sense of our current military order of battle. My computer takes FOREVER to view the screenshots (modem connection), so I don't view them very often, and I was away all last week. So anyway, how many troops do we have, and what have we got in production?

Would it be faster for you if the screenshots were posted online instead of sent via email? Now that we have the capacity to do that....would also be good for people gone for a while, a way to catch up quickly, since, in my case with hotmail, one email overloads the inbox and nothing else gets through.



I agree about the overwhelming force. I don't think a limited ishmus goal-war is a good idea. If we leave more than two cities of vox, then we are inviting trouble. Total destruction.


Oh, re: galleys-

It might be easier to blockade the ports directly than to guard the coast. Also, if they were trading for, say, horses, then that would be stopped. Granted this is dependent on them only having a couple ports.

	03-04-2003 02:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian If things go well and we win easily, maybe we ended up wasting some shields or gold on too many military units. But that PALES in comparison to what happens if it turns out we didn't bring enough firepower to the party.

Oh, one more thing

If we have a large army afterwards, then great. The knights can upgrade to Cavalry and the mi's can upgrade to guerrillas and be garrisons. I agree with you fully, far better to be overprepraed than under.