02-04-2003 05:41									#1
	Immortal Beloved - Timing and Detailed Planning Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I gather we are all getting impatient to get this underway. I have posted some intel in the GS thread which has bearing on this.

It is now 900BC, let's call this turn 1 for now.

Warrior production looks like this:
2 .. 875 =0
3 .. 850 =2
4.. 825 =1
5 .. 800 =3
6 .. 775 =1
7 .. 750 =2 (assumes The Voice is producing settler now, otherwise add 1)
8 .. 725 =0
9 .. 700 =2

We need two turns to connect the road.

A warrior upgraded in Miller Town will take one turn to upgrade, and two to move to the staging point - tile east of Elipolis. From there it is two moves to Dissidentville - and then 4 to the mountain overlooking target number one. 3 if we want to go via grassland.

That is a total of 9 turns including the upgrade turn, 8 if we go via the grassland tile.

It will take 8 turns for the galley to drop off the two units it is now carrying on iron mountain or thereabouts, return to Elipolis, pick up two more, and make it down to the mountain chain on the east coast just north of GS territory. That would allow us to cut off the GS warrior.

Intel (see GS FA thread) that GS will have Feudalism in 14 turns. They will be using probably all their cash flow to get that. This makes it even more critical to get some money out of them if at all possible before we head in.

So - the original plan was to reconnect the iron after turn 5, which means the operation starts 3 turns later (one upgrade turn and two to get into position) and then 6 turns to a position from which to attack the first city. Total =14 turns.

Not good.

I propose that now that we have a method for upgrading units on the go - ie Dissidenville - that we kick things off sooner than later. Having 4 fewer Immortals initially will be more than offset by them not having pikemen. We have to make a dent - and make it quick.

They will be in the dilemma of having to finish Feudalism - and yet needing the cash to rush or upgrade units. And if they want to pop rush units - they will need to change governments which will cost them a turn on anarchy.

They key here will be keeping the pressure on - and having both GoW and our own units in their backfield. I propose we move the schedule up by two turns. I will have the worker start building the road next turn. We upgrade the warriors on turn 3, into position by turn 5, operation kicks off on turn 6.

We then use Harry's proposal to continue to pump out warriors and upgrade them at Dissidentville.

Two workers also follow the troops down. It will take them 12 turns of movement and road building to construct a road from Dissidentville to Target City Numero Uno. After that - we should be able to get troops to the front very quickly.

Intel also indicates that they do not have a large army. This is supported by the military advisor. The trick here will be to maintain our numerical advantage by killing their units, and taking cities. Guess that was fairly obvious. If they have 11 cities - we should wade into their biggest cities as soon as possible. If we can hit their core cities early and hard - we stand a good chance.

I have also got commitments of further war financing should we need it - and we probably will when we hit our GA and are pumping out warriors very quickly. We also have the Roleplay 8 gpt, plus our own improved cash flow, so we should have lots of money.

Let's hope we can keep one of their chariots from scoring an early victory until we have the tide clearly turned in our favor.

So - any thoughts on going on turn 6?

If we go on turn 6, we may not be able to implement any elaborate plans for the insertion of more troops on the east coast. We may have to forego trying to takeout the two GS warriors.

And - what kind of Bobian deception do we really need here? Maybe just the pretend planning of such an invasion would be sufficient. Or some sabre rattling from GoW.

As soon as we have firmed up our timing - I will contact Ghengis. Last contact - they were still in. And if they were going to stiff us - they could have done it with the trade deal, as I sent them Monotheism as accepted. They returned the cash as agreed upon.

I still have not given up on the idea of them taking out the GS warrior - but I am not sure it is feasible.

OK - discussion time.

Last edited by Beta on 02-04-2003 at 18:16

	02-04-2003 18:24									#2
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No poll necessary - a simple turn 6 or turn 8 will suffice. But we will need to decide soon as we need to change the worker order to build road if we are going on turn 6.

And we need to co-ordinate with GoW.

	02-04-2003 19:02									#3
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I say turn 6. The sooner the better.

	02-04-2003 20:01									#4
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turn 6

	02-04-2003 23:28									#5
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The sooner the better. We can not afford to let them get Feudalism before we take a few cities.

We need to find their source of iron. Two likely areas are the end of the mountain chain south of Dissidentville and the end of the chain on the east coast. There generally are hills near mountains, or at least on one side of the mountains. With an early start we may not be able to divide our force. Pushing east may become a high priority once the units are available.

Can GS get two horsemen near the GS warrior in five turns? I doubt it. We may have to take it out ourselves. There is another option but it takes getting a settler produced fast and moving it, along with a spearman, to the site next to the GS warrior I had on my city map.

	03-04-2003 00:42									#6
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6.

	03-04-2003 02:14									#7
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turn 6.

	03-04-2003 02:57									#8
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Me too. 6.

	03-04-2003 03:52									#9
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So - anybody have thoughts on how we should handle the east coast situation and the galley, now that we have advanced things by two turns. We can land the spearman and the Immortal near iron mountain, and have them ready to advance when things kick off. This may be helpful if that is all GS will see in the first days of the war. They will think this is a pathetic invasion, and maybe delay complete mobilization.

The spearman could take over on the mountain - allowing the warrior to proceed to Dissdentville. We will have a quick second wave when we upgrade the three southern warriors.

But then what does the galley do - skip back - pick up two immortals, or an immortal and a spearman, and head south. This is probably the best bet. It will give some idea of terrain. It will stretch their defence, particularly if GoW goes down the west coast. We may get lucky and find the iron source. And we may find some lightly defended cities.

	03-04-2003 07:18									#10
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I like the idea of dropping off and going back for more. The one Immortal could head down the east mountains to give us some visibility on what is going on there and could be a backup for the units in the galley. If we find an easy city it would be a closer pickup to reinforce them.

	03-04-2003 10:20									#11
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I say bring some troops south, take a look around, maybe we can find there source of Iron and spearhead in that direction

	07-04-2003 02:36									#12
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I postyed this in the lLego FA thread after my chat with nimitz of Lego.

"They are negotiating with GS for feudalism. They are now aware of our plans. They wish us luck.

GS informed them that they would have feudalism in 8 turns, 4 at their fastest research rate. But that they would only do that if they had deals in the works."

So - we are going to be into the thick of it fairly soon. The only good thing is that they do not have a large army to start with - so not much to upgrade. And we will be taking out two warriors early. They will be forced into production of units.

But it looks like it will be Immortals against pikemen for much of this. We need to take out some cities early.

	07-04-2003 02:52									#13
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See The GS thread for my latest findings. I highly suggest we aim for their capital.

	07-04-2003 19:00									#14
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THE IMPACT OF FEUDALISM

I know we are all concerned about the impact GS getting feudalism will have on the upcoming operation. After some thinking - I am a little less concerned.

Medieval infantry is a 40 shield build. That is a 60 gold upgrade from warrior. Note the Immortal - at the same strength, is 10 shields and 20 gold cheaper. Upgrades at 60 gold each will be expensive.

So - a strong army is going to take some time to build. Rushes under republic would be horribly expensive.

And - from all indications, they do not have a large army now to start with.

This will clearly be a case of how many cities we can take out quickly - and getting them behind the eight-ball.

And we could only sever the horses and/or the iron we would really cripple them.

	07-04-2003 19:14									#15
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Doesn't their War Chariots upgrade to Knights with Feudalism? This is my main concern...

	07-04-2003 19:15									#16
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But you are right Beta, if we can cut their supply of horses &/or iron - this won't be a problem.

	07-04-2003 19:56									#17
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I checked it looks like they are going all out for Fuedalism. so it looks like they will have it in 4
Witt. I don't think you get knights from Feudalism.

	07-04-2003 21:20									#18
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Oops, you're right Macy. Chivalry gives you Knights. My bad.

	07-04-2003 21:41									#19
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I made the same assumption Witt. My earlier post had knights in it. They are a 70 shield build, and a 100 gold upgrade from war chariots. That could drain a treasury in a hurry.

But I figure this will be decided one way or the other by then - and we all know which way we want it to go.

	08-04-2003 01:56									#20
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The GS capital is on the flats. That provides little protection for our forces. I would rather go with our plan to head down the mountains as previously planned. Then follow the hills and moutains. That provides our forces some protection and it increases our chance of finding their iron. We do need a second force to work the hills and mountains on the east coast. Harry and Mo will not be able to do it alone. Depending on what H&M find we may want to ferry some of the reinforcements their way.

	08-04-2003 02:49									#21
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Yes - I was trying to figure out how to get at it, too. And maybe we don't want to immediately. It is clearly their settler-worker pump - with an incredible plus-6 food production. But very low shield production. And the trek across the plains will leave us susceptible to attrition form counter-attacking chariots using the road network.

I suspect their shield producing cities are a bit further south. And as we progress that way - we can take out roads to isolate the capitol.

Now - Harry and Mo - my plan is on the first turn to land Harry on the mountain where our warrior is now - and Mo lands two tiles further down and in one - on the grassland tile which is keyboard direction 1 (SW) from their warrior. He does not have a move the next turn where he can escape. But it does delay the trek south.

I suggest that Harry and Mo stay and kill that warrior, and then by foot move into the mountain chain. In the meantime - a spearman and immortal will move down to iron mountain where the galley can pick them up. Thus giving us a force of four troops going down the eastern mountain chain. I do want to kill the warrior - he is only 10 shields - but he is a potential swordsmen/medieval infantry.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

	08-04-2003 03:27									#22
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That sounds good.

	08-04-2003 04:57									#23
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I think it is a good plan, But where are the second two going to be dropped off at by the Galley. I guess we will have to wait and see what is down there.

	08-04-2003 05:03									#24
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My suggested public announcemnt to be posted as soon as we play the turn. This should hopefully seal the GS deal for the 95 gold. Which is 2 and half more immortals for us, and 2 less medieval infantry for them.

Please comment quickly. We can no longer wait for Ghengis. This has to go up before GS plays their turn.

Apolyton Public Announcement - Operation MacArthur

This is to advise the world's nations that Vox Controli has returned to the continent. We have tried to negotiate a mutually-benefical agreement with the continental nations, but as of yet have not reached such an agreement.

We come in peace. But we come in force.

Our claim is to a small portion of the north-west corner of the continent. We can discuss this rationally, and we will explain our needs for a maximum settlement of five cities - fairly tightly packed. We can even agree on city placement, and we will sign an agreement that this will be the extent of any claim we have on the continent. We would also ask that the city of Wittlich West be peacefully returned to its rightful owners - the Voxian people. We are willing to come to any reasonable agreement on this matter.

However, we are willing to defend our claim to this land. In fact, the operation is so named as the last Vox leader to leave the continent after our earlier expedition claimed "People of Wittlich West - I will return". He is committed to staying this time. And Vox Controli has ensured that he has the military backing to keep that commitment.

If war is the path chosen, such a war of attrition will only serve to weaken all the nations involved - at the expense of those involved. So, I plead for reason to prevail in this matter. Let peace and prosperity carry the day.

We are open to discuss this matter at any time. Please contact any member of our team if you wish to talk.

Peace.

BetaHound
Voice of Foreign Affairs
Vox Controli

	08-04-2003 05:06									#25
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quote: Originally posted by mjmacy I think it is a good plan, But where are the second two going to be dropped off at by the Galley. I guess we will have to wait and see what is down there.

Yup - my thoughts exactly. We will see what we can see. The only concern here is a GS galley zipping out of a port and sinking our galley with two trrops in it. We may want to consider a plan where they land somewhere on the coast at the end of every turn - provided it is good defensive terrain. The next turn they load and move on. If the galley is sunk without them in it - at least they can cause some havoc on land.

	08-04-2003 05:15									#26
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This is great Beta... I think this will cause much turmoil in the public forum... It would be quit fun to watch and encourage... I just hope GoW will participate as they have said they would.

We're all online now... we could meet in our chatroom to discuss our plans

--Kon--

	08-04-2003 05:38									#27
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Great idea. We should. Let's pm a few folks- see u there.

	08-04-2003 06:51									#28
	Chat transcript (partial) of Kon and Beta, April 7 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Konquest02 Miller Town is perfectly situated to support every other town... BetaHound yes Konquest02 Yes, but in a sense, hell would have broken loose in 2 turns... Konquest02 He could have chosen a much worse timing... BetaHound The problem is we now have to build it next turn - and with the map deal on the table - GS may squawk BetaHound I am thinking up a story line Konquest02 I know you can! BetaHound my imagination is getting taxed here BetaHound So - RP set up an embassy with us. BetaHound We say that we are also now establishing embassies with Lego and GS BetaHound This is coincidental to us going back to the continent Konquest02 To get a closer "feel" of our allies... BetaHound and is an attempt for us to form in-game alliances against NeuD and GoW. BetaHound yes - exactly. BetaHound Does it work? BetaHound Or too far fetched Konquest02 We should contact Lego and build embassy there too... Konquest02 How are our relations with them? BetaHound Can GS tell whether we have or not? BetaHound With Lego - great!!! Konquest02 Through the map deal, yes... BetaHound how so? Konquest02 Sorry, no, we already have the map of their territory Konquest02 If we didn't they would have seen a spot on our map... BetaHound And the Lego capital is shown - so it looks OK. Right? Konquest02 yes BetaHound whew.. Konquest02 BetaHound So - Lego. Yes - strong but secret ally. BetaHound They are willing to bankroll our campaign. Konquest02 Ok... I've always liked them.. BetaHound And they will not trade with GS BetaHound Same with RP Konquest02 They are the Jews of Apolyton! (not being mean there...) BetaHound so I think we may have isolated GS economically BetaHound yes - true BetaHound my only concern is that GoW may try and take advnatage of the situation Konquest02 GS being tagged as the "all-star" team, they have made a number of enemies jsut by signing up... BetaHound yup - they should have divvied up the team. BetaHound In the early days Vox only had 5. BetaHound At least a bit. BetaHound The next few days are going to be an eye opener I think. Konquest02 I hope so! BetaHound And I was thinking when we head down the mountains .. BetaHound we should keep the group split BetaHound oner half following the other by one turn BetaHound that way - they will not get an idea of what is coming at them BetaHound and hopefully they will under-react Konquest02 Exaclty... BetaHound thinking silly Voxians Konquest02 I'm too slow typing tonight! BetaHound they only brought 7 immortals to take the whole country BetaHound np Konquest02 And then 7 more show up! Konquest02 BetaHound And then 7 after that Konquest02 < BetaHound and 7 after that Konquest02 :evil laughter: BetaHound we already have 7 warriors et to go. BetaHound 306 gold in the treasury Konquest02 ouch... It might hurt a lot... BetaHound 95 more from GS - fingers crossed. BetaHound 200-300 in a war grant from Lego BetaHound and hopefull the 200 from RP for engineering Konquest02 Which sums at...? BetaHound Thats 800-900 BetaHound 20-22 immortal upgardes Konquest02 Which is at least 20 imms... BetaHound yup Konquest02 This is gooood... BetaHound in addition to the 15 on the ground BetaHound We are going to need them Konquest02 Where do you think GS cities are located? BetaHound This will be a fierce war of attrition - and they do have good players BetaHound I suspect they are all around the capitol Konquest02 Let's say from their capital? BetaHound Which is good BetaHound south Konquest02 I suspect one being 6-6-9... Konquest02 On the river BetaHound The initial note from GS way back when would indicate that Hurricane is somewhere on the east coast BetaHound and probably within 3-4 tiles of their capitol BetaHound just a sec Konquest02 That should be Hurricane... 3 tiles BetaHound yup - bout right Konquest02 Nathan is a fan of 3-tile spacing... (usually) Konquest02 Theseus likes the "ralphing" concept (temp. camps...) Konquest02 So it might be a compromise between the 2 BetaHound yes - and there is definitely one at 5-5-9 from the capitol Konquest02 5? BetaHound sorry - 8-8-9 Konquest02 yes BetaHound and one at 7-7-7-7-8 BetaHound just south of the mountain - that is the first target Konquest02 Yes.. I'll make a map... BetaHound oooh - that would be great. BetaHound But I suspect that their major shield cities are south of the capitol. Konquest02 I'm a big fan of photoshop... BetaHound do you give lessons? BetaHound Konquest02 Not officially... I took a digital photography class in college... Konquest02 It was great! BetaHound Hmmm- good idea. Konquest02 But if you have questions, just ask me! BetaHound I am new to most of this technical stuff. BetaHound Did you see the early MIRC thread posts - and poor Eli getting exasperated with me. BetaHound I have come along way in 4 months. Konquest02 Not attentively... I'm fairly new to IRC too... Konquest02 That is good... PS is really powerful, once you konw how to use it... BetaHound I only ever use to use my comp. for civ3 SP Konquest02 Konquest02 good use though...! BetaHound yes BetaHound I joined poly for this game BetaHound and have had to learn some stuff quickly. BetaHound bit by bit Konquest02 Yes... You've come a looooong way! But you're good at it! BetaHound spend a lot of time here now BetaHound I'm approaching emperor. BetaHound eeek! Konquest02 Whoa!! In 4 months! This is a lot of time here! BetaHound yup. BetaHound back to the game- BetaHound what did you think of Harry;s idea of sticking to the mountains BetaHound and not going out to get the capitol Konquest02 yes... We should make a personnal chat once... All of us, to get to know us outside of 'poly... BetaHound yup - we had a thread awhile back where we posted bios and the like. Konquest02 I'll try to dig it up... BetaHound I'm the oldest. Konquest02 20 here... BetaHound 46 BetaHound Witt is 42 I think BetaHound And Diss 36 BetaHound Eli 18 BetaHound Jon 22 BetaHound Harry - my age or thereabouts I think Konquest02 I like sticking to the mountains as the chariots can't reach us... Konquest02 Great! Thanks for the info! BetaHound BetaHound yes - and the capitol is not producing much in the way of shields BetaHound only food BetaHound but lots of it BetaHound they may be using it to grow their other cities Konquest02 Yes, but it's a really psychological defeat, when your capital gets captured... BetaHound we will need to see how close the mountains get to it Konquest02 Is it an effective tactic? Maybe, but I like to stick to the mountains and try to spot the iron... BetaHound yup Konquest02 There is one just 4-4 of the capital... BetaHound there is amountain 4-4 from the capitol BetaHound that would only mean one turn on the plains BetaHound but if it was a stack of 8-10 chariots - it could be messy Konquest02 That's about the closest approach we can do... BetaHound But the iron - if we get that. Konquest02 I'm sure taht if we move our stack there, they will mobilize almost all their chariots to get us... BetaHound I was also thinking they may have more iron - but just not connected. Konquest02 Will it trigger their GA? BetaHound yes - agreed BetaHound yes Konquest02 So they will get A LOT of chariots... Konquest02 I insist on A LOT BetaHound yes - at 20 shileds per BetaHound that;s cheap Konquest02 it may get ugly... Konquest02 We should aim for the shield producers first then... BetaHound yup - we need to take down cities and do it fast BetaHound yes - I agree Konquest02 What about a city 2-2-2? of Monsoon? BetaHound one sec Konquest02 or maybe another tile... Konquest02 a little farther south... 2-2-2-1? BetaHound maybe another. if it was 222 I'm sure the cultural border would cut south from monsoon. BetaHound yes - probably that BetaHound well - I need to play the turn. BetaHound well I need to play the trun Konquest02 ok... I'll post my map on the forum... BetaHound h BetaHound mmmmm Konquest02 ? BetaHound sorry -I was looking the other way with my fingers on the key board 0- one of the cats BetaHound Olly the Immortal Konquest02 The Brute! BetaHound Yes - any pets your way? BetaHound We need names!! Konquest02 Maurice... I once had a fish called that... BetaHound Great. Maurice the marauding fish Konquest02 great! BetaHound So - do I post the announcement BetaHound and a letter to GS about the emabbsy BetaHound embassy Konquest02 let's go! and be prepared to get a lot of replies to this thread! BetaHound yee haw!!! BetaHound ok - cya Konquest02 your story was good... you should keep it as is Konquest02 cya! BetaHound ok BetaHound peace BetaHound hahahaha Konquest02 lol! BetaHound bye

	08-04-2003 06:57									#29
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you can see the hypothetical map of GS I made during my chat with Beta here : http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Konquest02/mapGS.jpg

Red spots are fairly certain cities, the green spot is a relatively doubtful one...

Please discuss the ideal way to attack such a civ...

--Kon--

	08-04-2003 19:08									#30
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The reaction in the public forum is simply maaahhhvelous.



I love this game.