02-04-2003 08:05									#1
	Technology Problems in the Industrial Age Increase the size of your Attachments

Hi folks, I'm come across a few problems in my current game (My usual beefed up Monarch not quite emporer difficulty level) , While I've managed to become the best civ in terms of landmass and population I'm a looooong way behind in Technology. All the other civs (8 civ game, 2 very large close continents) have about 4 techs on me, and sadly these are mainly the Joining techs to the Industial age (Nationalism, Steam power ect). I have already done a large gpt turn with Japan, and I simply dont have the spare resources to catch up in tech , my economy is republic but doesnt geered up to catching up as i dont have a large enough commerce income.

My options are

1)Buy the techs for a large gpt but where would my research come from then!?

2) Try and catch up without tech buying

3) Buy techs and then invade the culprit

As discussed in another thread, i resorted to doing this last time, and such a hard difficulty setting i just cant seem to find another way round it, and it more or less eliminates the possibility of a Diplomatic win IMO. I think tho that if i do it again this time I should also do a ROP Rape with my neighbour who I invade - If i'm going to blow my reputation i may as well do it in style no??

Any thoughts?

Cheers
Matt

	02-04-2003 08:38									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

A save game would help to know your exact position, but off the top of my head, some things that may help:

• sell excess luxuries & resources
  
• research a tech the others won't and sell it
  
• make sure all your city tiles being used are improved
  
• explore unused territory and map trade
  
• smith's really helps with money problems!
  
• tech whore - see who's missing what, buy from one, sell to the other.
  

	02-04-2003 08:51									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Buying tech for gpt is usually a bad idea. As painful as it may seem, if you must buy techs, set research to 0%, save gold, and buy them for lump sum gold or for luxuries / strategics. Your goal is not only to reach tech parity, but also to establish a tech lead -- and you can't establish a tech lead if a significant portion of your current income is devoted to payments for old techs.

Make sure your empire is efficient -- libraries and universities in economically productive cities, marketplaces everywhere, and banks in productive cities.

Be patient. A pair of big blind spots in the AI is: (1) how to trade tech effectively; and (2) how to avoid fruitless warfare. You can pretty much bet that lots of different wars will erupt among the AIs during the early Industrial Age, and the AI's inability to use artillery offensively means that such wars will do little more than cripple the AI tech leaders. You will have the chance to zoom by them if you keep your head down.

Make sure you're prepared for the Theory of Evolution. As best you can, estimate the time it will tae you to beg, borrow, steal, and research to Scientific Method, and make sure you have a palace pre-build timed to complete somewhere around that time (with a cushion for unexpected delays - see above re: destructive AI industrial wars). Theory of Evolution, and subsequent sales of your newly acquired (and free!) technologies, for massive gold-per-turn of course (see above re: gpt for tech being a bad idea for the buyer) is often the nail in the coffin for AIs against a human, even in those cases where the human is technologically backward in the early industrial age.

Good luck!

Catt

EDIT And everything badams52 said in his post above

	02-04-2003 09:17									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Wow Catt, how did we manage that! We crossposted and didn't duplicate any of our advice!

I fully agree with the straight gold and not GPT. If I remember correctly, it's actually cheaper if you can afford the wait and buy the tech outright (the gpt deal will amount to more gold when multiplied throught the 20 year term).

Everything else Catt mentioned is very solid advice too. I was trying to bring up the effeciency so I'm very glad Catt did it much more eloquently and quicker than I could. My guess is that lack of libraries, universities, marketplaces, banks are your biggest problems right now.

	02-04-2003 22:49									#5
	Tired of ads?

I am in a similar situation to Rothy, and I would like some very specific advice.

The world is huge, continents... I am the Vikings, dominating my two continents. A few opponents remain, seriously behind me in a tech and waiting to be annexed.

My government is Monarchy, about 100 gpt, and I have Magnetism and MT to go, each at 5 turns. Overseas, however, Carthage and India, who I have not met, have JUST ENTERED the industrial age. I do not think any scientific civs are alongside them, but I'm not sure...

So, two questions:

1. Assuming I can bounce my science rate up... even run a deficit... can I stay on Monarchy and keep up with my overseas competitors, tech-wise? (I'd want to stay in Monarchy to conquer the Spanish and English)

I have Democracy, but I'd hate NOT to crush my neighbors. On the other hand, they're no threat...

2. Assuming I can, what tech path should I follow? All I know is that I'm going to SKIP Nationalism, and maybe trade for it.

Should I go for Industrialization, THEN Sci. Method? Or should I just head straight for Sci. Method?

Remember, none of my neighbors can touch me, attack wise, besides in a minorly irritating way. I'm not really worried about an overseas assault... I think the Indians built Magellan's Expedition.

Thanks (ahead of tiem) for your advice, everyone!

	02-04-2003 23:56									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

1. yes but only if you can catch up soon. Tech trading can help you keep up with lower science but if your behind everyone in every path you can't do it.

2. If you can skip MT, do so. If you're dominating your neighbours enough, you can finish them off with knights and your UU. If you can get any tech first you should be able to trade for it. If you need help with this, you could aim for Replaceable Parts anyway.
Research Steam Power first. If by that time it looks as though you might get Electricity first research that.

Basically if ToE is going to be a race for shields, research Industrialisation first unless you expect to trade for it. Getting it should put you in a position to trade to the front in tech. There is a danger that other civs might get Scientific Method faster if you research it and switch from the more expensive US to the ToE.

Only panic if you miss the ToE. Then come back for more advice.

You might have difficulty trading for Nationalism early. The solution I use is to get it late.

	03-04-2003 00:47									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Nor Me 2. If you can skip MT, do so.

But my war will go so much faster with Cavalry... and that way, I can alternate building attack units and factories, workers to railroad, etc.

But thank you for your advice... it is helpful.

Anyone else got some more? Bring it on!

	03-04-2003 00:59									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My favoured approach to the early Industrial is to avoid wars. MT is for that knight-->cavalry upgrade to finish off your neighbours. If you are not planning to do that it is better to push research and building. If you can get the three Industrial GW's you will be in good shape to overrun the stronger AI's in the late Industrial with tanks and airpower.

I would switch to democracy now and skip all optional techs. Beeline industrialisation, scientific method, electronics, replaceable parts, flight and motorized transport. Get factories and coal plants in two or three good cities and go for US, ToE and Hoover then sell the surplus coal plants.

Whilst all this is going on your workers can be building RR's to speed up troop movements around your continents. Don't forget to RR enough tiles around your wonder building cities to maximise their shield output.

Once you have ToE you can trade scientific method for other techs, similarly electronics after you get Hoover. This should allow you to pick up nationalism and the other techs the AI's have and you don't.

Then you are set to churn out tanks, bombers and infantry and after that it should be a massacre.

	03-04-2003 01:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Then you are set to churn out tanks, bombers and infantry and after that it should be a massacre.

Thanks for the advice.

I actually have two whole (smallish) continents to myself, with only the English and Spanish, plus a few "leftovers" (German, French, Russians), to finish off, and the Babs are alone on the island with no resources whatsoever, except for iron I believe.

So I think I'll do MT, then follow your beeline instructions. I won't ever have to worry about invading overseas to win (I hope)... it's just too much of a hassle, unless there turns out to be a coastal city with a ncie wonder in it.

I'd like to have the infantry to deter those @#(*& Carthaginians, though.

	03-04-2003 08:15									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Nor Me 2. If you can skip MT, do so. If you're dominating your neighbours enough, you can finish them off with knights and your UU. If you can get any tech first you should be able to trade for it.

quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth But my war will go so much faster with Cavalry... and that way, I can alternate building attack units and factories, workers to railroad, etc.

Listen to NorMe. Researching MT yourself is a big investment of research time that you don't need. If your position on your landmasses is as superior as it sounds, knights and berserkers should be more than sufficient for your needs -- with a tech lead locally, you don't have to worry about facing anything other than knights or conquistadors on offense and muskets on defense, and you needn't worry about AI invasions from the more advanced civs overseas. Stay in Monarchy, seize the land you need, but forget about MT -- its window of opportunity is relatively limited, and you seem to have no need to invest the 5 turns of research in order to open that window. Research cost (and therefore turn-length) is going to increase significantly after you discover Magnetism -- don't add to the turn-delay you'll already experience in trying to secure a tech lead by researching an optional tech that offers you little practical advantage given your situation.

Catt

	03-04-2003 21:20									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

On a higher difficulty level, I'd probably take the advice: skip MT, pick it up later. As it is, I'm on regent, and I've taken half of Spain in 5 or 6 turns with Cavalry. I paid a pretty penny to the Indians (1070 gold) for Magnetism, but I am the only world power now with Steam Power. 2 turns to go to Industrialization, new techs every 7 turns, 100+ gpt. 4 Spanish cities remain.

Just my uncanny bad luck with this game - despite being the largest power in the world, there was NO coal in my empire when I got Steam Power. So I HAD to take on the Spanish, to get their one source - though I started the war before I knew this situation.

Next question:

I have a leader. One city has been building a palace FOREVER, but it is a highly unproductive city.

Should I use the leader for US or ToE?

I'm thinking US... then (eventually) do some tech selling.

Point is, I'm waging war, don't have much of a treasury, but I'm pulling ahead in tech and I'm still a monarchy. Democracy will come... probably after I take down England and become TOTALLY UNCHALLENGABLE!

Thanks for the advice though, y'all.

What techs should I skip (I mean, for the time being)?

	04-04-2003 00:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

US or ToE? Why waste a leader on a wonder at this stage? I'd rush US only if I didn't want to move my palace or FP and already had a victorious army.

You'll have no truble in building all industrial age wonders. The AI doesn't build factories first often enough, railroads slower and is often building rails on irrigation anyway. You don't need to be ahead on tech and on regent as well. Only the Hoover Dam will give you any gain from getting it faster anyway.

Armies can be useful. But if one just costs 400 shields then maybe rush US. Are you sure you don't want to move your palace 1 city instead?

Does it matter which techs you skip? If your not aiming for an early as possible space race then just research what's useful

	04-04-2003 00:59									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm a little worried about Carthage or India catching up... both have Nationalism now.

True, maybe I can keep up and beat them... but what if THEY get a leader?

Also, I just took my one coal source, but if that runs out (a slim but feasible possiblity), I'll have to invade England, and then getting their coal will take a while, and connecting it longer... I could very well fall behind in the industrialization "race".

I guess I won't use the leader until I hear "Carthage has begun build the US" or "India has begun building the ToE". Then I'll see how my progress is going, and use my best judgment.

Given the dissappointing leader creation ratio I've had so far in this game, I am NOT going to use this leader to create an army. I can wipe out my neighbors easily enough, all armies aside.

No matter what happens, this won't be an UP game for me though. But they can't all be, can they?

	04-04-2003 01:00									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Skip espionage.

Here's a general tip for everyone in that type of position (behind in tech in any age). However, ethical gamers like myself shouldn't even bother to look. Offer to buy tech from a civ for some exorbitant (say 700) gpt deal, and then immediately declare war. I haven't tried it, but it should work. Just make sure you can kick their @$$#$ really quickly, so you can just get back to researching. And of course, if you're REALLY desperate, go for espionage (or simply skip that) and try to steal some tech. Be ready for war anyway, because it may just not work . The great thing is, then when you've reestablished a tech lead, you can pad out yours by selling the techs to your enemies for lots of gpt .

LATER EDIT: Sorry, I missed a post there, so here's my add-on: Very true that all games can't be up ones, and don't be so paranoid. It's just a game .

Last edited by Ephesos on 04-04-2003 at 01:06

	04-04-2003 01:04									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Espionage is just too galling for my personal taste.

I >do< like to spread propaganda in weak, recently conquered cities, and bring them to me on the cheap, especially if there's a resource involved.

And of course, there's the F3 option, which is good.

There's a good link discussing the pros and cons of espionage somewhere around here...