02-04-2003 09:42									#1
	Civ4 Suggestions Inflate your Upload Space

I originally posted a list of several suggestions in threads in the Play the World forum, I'm being persistent because I think these are good ideas, and even if Firaxis doesn't adopt them I would want to see if others here could join with me to work these out in a game. If there's a different forum where you think this thread would get more needed attention please point it out to me.

I should note that these suggestions are inspired by my play of many other strategy/simulation games, including SimCity/SimEarth, Imperialism, Caesar/Pharoah, Lords of the Realm, Deadlock Colonization/Railroad Tycoon, etc. Except for a few I won't have on this list, I think while they would change the Civilization game dramatically, it would still be close enough to the original game to continue the series. The changes mostly are to boost the aspects of the game dealing with infrastructure (which includes commerce) and culture, to take away the primary military bent still in gameplay despite many changes already made with the intent to downplay it. I dont think these will complicate the game that much either.

I think I have some more suggestions I don't include, which I may remember later.

FEEL FREE to use this thread to add your own suggestions for the game.

1. The city's radius, within the border, as an area for growth of residential, industrial and commercial complexes, similar how its done in Railroad Tycoon; this at first may remind people of the original realtime attempt at Civilization that Sid Meier speaks of, where the player just made 'seeds' for industry, but its significantly different, while trying to keep the same intent, as I'll explain. As you found your city you start a residential complex, and also the main city center, forming the border around it. There is no local economy, so the player has to utilize the land himself. He uses a worker to build a farm on a grassland, a lumber industry on forests, and then other industries. Once the local economy has enough steam of its own (enough wood, etc. to construct them) they spring up naturally on their own as needed for the cities, throughout everywhere with connected trade (roads and harbors). Thus, maybe for the next city the player has, after a few turns, farms appear, and other industries. Most of this theplayer never has to worry about at all. The player has some role in 'seeding' things, but it isnt a matter of just placing a seed on the map, its a matter of taking the right steps in the economy. This would obviously also bring resources into the game, like it was in colonization. No fear about this, the resources produced by factories and gathered from other industries would be shown on the map overlayed on top of the industries easy for the player to see; trading is done automatically through Civilization 3's system (unless a more advanced system is added for other reasons). The point is to have the government initiate change, and then the private economy takes over. Also, residential buildings would also appear other places besides the main city center when population grows. They would appear in single blocks and then combine to double sized blocks like in Caesar or Pharoah as its done there for wealth of residence. This would take care of the constant suggestions for cities that take more than one square. Walls would be built on tiles directly, instead of through a city screen, as well as everything else.

2. Technological research should be based on resource gathering. This would mean, say for the technology 'Cotton Gin', the player would gather 1000 cotton, and have a certain science capita. This would be a large change that would make the individual civilizationos grow and develop their own regional cultures, dependent on the means of production, in a Marxist type fashion. Cultures that appear near spices and incense might develop Mysticism, build temples and monuments, and become a very deeply religious civilization. A culture that has other materials at hand might make it quicker to developing in other ways. Maybe or maybe not technology trading would still have the resource requirement, I havent decided whether this would be good.

3. There are more 'tribes' and the player starts out as a minor tribe of a larger culture, so the main part of the early game will involve trading with this early neighbors, forming alliances (having entire tribes join you by treaty) to consolidate city-states into large nations. The game will permanently recognize areas joined as provinces--mainly just for the perk of the player (like naming landmarks), though other civilizations can ask for entire provinces, or have war goals to only gain back these provinces.

4. Unit management should be taken more seriously, armies as a standard thing rather than just a bonus from playing for a while; taking care of stack movement more naturally. 'Generals' of these armies can also be automated in the same way as governors of cities.

5. Landmasses are generated to be more natural. Look at any civ game map then look at the real world map and you'll see that the real world is much more complex and compacted into unusual shapes. Not just large chunks of land. I think this is important mainly because of strategic reasons (but also for the fun of playing on a natural map!) that effect gameplay. I don't know how it would be done but I would first look at how the game SimEarth manages to create landmasses--it creates craters and uses some techtonic shift system. Fractals may also be helpful here.

6. Take scenarios for the game more seriously, and add many options for scenarios so that they become a major part of the game. For example, the ability to alternate tilesets after every turn or so; between day and night, or between winter and summer, or between all seasons; each tileset with its own advantages and disadvantages. Also, overseas tiles like in Colonization, so it isn't strange to play on a restricted map.

7. Add Fascism to the game (this is minor, it can already be done in a way). In the early game, there is the option between Republic/Monarchy, then Democracy/Communism. Instead, Fascism and Communism should be two late game solutions to catch up in the game--Communism managing corruption and large empires, and Fascism with advantages in productivity and technological advance.

	02-04-2003 18:46									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

One minor little suggestion, that would likely clear up many of the problems of Civ3:

Bring back Brian Reynolds!

Otherwise, stop sullying the greatest franchise in the history of computer games.

	02-04-2003 20:07									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My main suggestions (in no particular order): (copied from the other place he posted this)

(1) make fortresses have ZOCs like civ II.
(2) get rid of tech eras, bring back the civ II style tech advancing
(3) make espionage more worthwhile but not as deadly as civ II
(4) ability to mediate peace between rival civs. You dial them up and ask them to make peace a la alpha centauri
(5) make hitpoints and firepower like civ II!
(6) blind research

	02-04-2003 23:03									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Bloodier revolutions.

	03-04-2003 00:02									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A few detailed ones:

1. Make population matter: what you can do specially in the creation of units, should be based on your population. units would cost population to make, much like in Colonization. how productive a square is would not be based only on the type of square and what imporvement you have on it, but also on how may pop. points were being used to exploit it. The sam would go for city improvements: certain amounts of people would be needed to run improvements and to make them. How fast something is amde would depend on how many people are making it as well as the resources available.
1.1: it might also be inetresting to have different types of pop points, sucha as "farmers", "priests", so forth and so on (not too many though, that would add uneeded micromanaguement). as time went bye, the importance of each type wpuld change, either grwo or diminishg: this would set of internal instability, and thus create a better model for internal politics than what currently exists.
1.2: retain the notion of some national identity to population we had in civ3. perhaps also add religious leanings. The religion's need not be named like real one in the general game (players could name things as they will on their own).

2. Have social enginnereing ala AC or even the EU model: This would allow the separation of political from economic considerations, as well as allow the player to make the differences between civs greater, or lesser, with time. As in AC, to maintain civ differences, certain values could be prohibited, or eprhaps, certaint civs get better bonuses, or worse penalities, for using some specific value.

3.

quote: 4. Unit management should be taken more seriously, armies as a standard thing rather than just a bonus from playing for a while; taking care of stack movement more naturally. 'Generals' of these armies can also be automated in the same way as governors of cities.

I agree: something akin to the MOO3 task force system is a very good idea. Unitscan be made as is, but to be used, they need to be grouped into commands and are then either used directly by the player, or given over to commanders to carry out specific missions.
3.1: on the topic of AI goevrnors/commanders: introduce the limited ability to bribe such individuals (in the same vain as spies in civ2, but a little more refined)

4. The number of key resources should be kept small to avoid an overload (needing 4-5 different things to make a unit is exesive) but the amount of resources should matter just as well. A single ore mine does not a civ run. A slgith retooling of mineral resources ala Colonization would be good (x square gives you 2iron..). It would also be good to add man-made resources, such as "energy", needed to make and run higher level building improvements. You can also have luxury products and man made luxury products.

A small list might be as follows: resources that can be gathered: grain, fish, timber/stone (to build early on),, gold/silver, ore 1, ore2, ore 3 (to signify different levels of metalurgy), coal, oil, rubber. Luxuries: silks, dyes, spices.
man made ones: "energy" (any sort fo energy, from water power to nuclear power: new tech make much higher yield enrgy production possible)bronze,iron, steel, plastics. Luxury goods: cloth, consumer goods..

and a few more, or less.

Trade would be of commodities and not just abstracted. Quantities would matter, and prices could change, ala Colonization. This would make the struggle for resources as realisitc or more than in civ3.

5. Allow for blind research. Add more techs about organization, as these are as vital to growth as new scientific discoveries.

6. each city would have mutiple build queues, perhaps one for improvements and one for units. It would be nice to add in private growth: the goevrnment does not control all, specially in the mid-regions. how fast you grow should be not only a result of your direct game acitons, but also the reults of polices you innnacted that allowed for private growth. allowing for private enerprise also changes the method of tax and make it mroe real: you take a cut of all that your civ makes and do what you will with it: the cut you don;t take goes towards making improvements without yur direct act. Early on, the private sector can't do much, and it will become more pwoerful with time. Conversely, your ability to tap inot the fruits fo this private enterprise will also grow as new techs allow for better monotering, tax records,and so forth.

So this was my liost: besides makign the game more challenging, I don;t think thse ideas are beyond the relm of possibility, as many of them have, in some form or another, already been implemented in variou games, though never all together.

	11-04-2003 04:31									#6
	Support Apolyton

1. Allow air units to perform interdiction missions (i.e. to pin enemy units to a square for 1 turn). Air superiority missions can take place over enemy cities.

2. Allow the first civ that makes a discovery to gain a genius in a "genius pantheon". e.g. Albert Einstein the great Zulu scientist. These are worth culture points. They can also arise spontaneously in cities with high culture or science.

3. More tile improvements. Fortresses in adjacent squares should be linked by a graphical wall or earthwork so that enemies cannot slip through the diagonal without taking heavy fire. Missile silos as a terrain improvement (they'd look cool). Upgrading of irrigation to farmland.

4. A jet bomber like a B-52 to replace the propeller driven bomber.

5. Perhaps a move away from squares to hexes.

6. Allowing civs to trade food and shields.

7. The game continues to 2300 with future techs being real techs. Cities can be built at sea just like SMAC. The spaceship is not available until after the modern era.

8. A naval worker unit available in the modern age to build an undersea detection network and later to service waterborne cities (again like SMAC).

9. Better use of submarines and naval units generally.

10. Types of government vary in effectiveness depending on the tech level you are at.

11. More "stealth" units - i.e. special forces.

12. Guerillas arise spontaneously like barbarians in the later stages of the game - in the civs of those who treat their people badly or around conquered cities.

13. The Apollo program changes to just being a wonder of the world with a massive science and culture bonus.

14. Plato's Academy ought to be a wonder of the world.

15. ICBMs are much more expensive and have a range (this makes nuclear subs much more interesting).

	11-04-2003 05:51									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I posted this in another Civ 4 suggestion thread, along with some other ideas, but this ones the one i think is most important:

More political engineering. Not just the 5 generic governments (especially since 4 of them are just improved versions of eachother, i.e. Despotism and Monarchy, Republic and Democracy, besides your basic corruption and waste improvements there are almost no differences between them).
We had such a great system in SMAC, different political, economic, and social value systems. If they had just kept it and expanded it further it would have made the game a lot better