02-04-2003 21:53									#1
	Hording Gold Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was thinking it would be in our best interests to get Libraries in Tempest and EotS pretty soon (Hurricane too once they finish their wonder). I think we should pull back on research for the time being and build up some infrastructure.

We want ~200 gold to rush Tempest's Aquaduct. We have 10 Warriors to upgrade (600g to Med Infantry). We also will want to upgrade several WC's to Knights at 100g per, and a couple of Spears to Pikes at 20g each. So at some point we have to save up cash. It's more efficient to pull back now, while our beakers are worth a gold each, instead of a gold + a bit. Leo's would cut our costs, but doesn't change the efficiency of when we save up the cash.

In our GA, we can go as high as 60% research if we don't flood with units. With Libraries, that will mean 4 turn techs. In EotS, we are at 27 beakers per turn, 25 in Tempest, and 28 in Hurricane without the Collosus. Libraries there then give us +39 beakers per turn, more if we get the Collosus. We stand to gain ~20 gold per turn by being able to cut back on research and still get 4 turn techs.

By pulling back research on Feudalism, we stand to not get it first. Lego doesn't seem too enamoured with Feudalism, so let someone else trade it to them (or we can whore it from whoever trades it to us, like has been done so often to our techs), and we can still get Chivalry first, which is the important tech for most the remaining civs. In the interim, we stand to pile up a lot of extra gold. We are at about 67 gpt right now at 100% taxes right? 11 turns of that is 737 gold. Then we'd have to pay for Feudalism, but it wouldn't be anything near that price (or we could research it at ~3 turns once everyone has it).

	02-04-2003 22:48									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson It's more efficient to pull back now, while our beakers are worth a gold each, instead of a gold + a bit.

I see the sense in that.

At first I was going to comment that not getting Feudalism first would mean that we'd miss out of all the gold we could make by whoring it around on Bob, but then I realized that we probably won't be paid with gold for tech at this point in the game.
If we take this route we would probably have to buy all the techs that we could have gotten for Feudalism if we whored it around, but the way things are looking we could probably get that for dirt-cheap prices, and if it means that we'll be building up infrastructure instead, and the result may well be overwhelming dominance in the tech arena, then I'm all for it.

	02-04-2003 23:16									#3
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If we would buy feud instead of researching it, it's not that certain we'll have chivalry first (certainly not if we want to wait for a god price), and even if we would get it first, others will be closely behind. So by saving cash now, we don't only lose any potential gain from feudalism, but also (most of the) gain on chivalry. That might be too much we lose in order for this to work.

However, rushing libraries, which pay themselves back in a reasonable time (e.g. less then 15 turns) makes a lot of sense (I do it more in my SP games). And, as said, in the near future we want to have cash, and need some way of acquiring it. From that perspective, stopping research now might be the best option.

One question: if we would go on with feudalism for another 3-4 turns, and stop half way there, won't we get feudalism 'for free' once enough teams have researched it? This might from where we stand now be less costly then having to bargain for it in a deal.

DeepO

	02-04-2003 23:35									#4
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO One question: if we would go on with feudalism for another 3-4 turns, and stop half way there, won't we get feudalism 'for free' once enough teams have researched it? This might from where we stand now be less costly then having to bargain for it in a deal.

Good idea. However, if we're willing to give up on the priviledge of being the first to research Feudalism, then we're in no rush to acquire it. Therefore, the additional research that we have to make in order to complete it can wait until we have those libraries, when it will become cheaper.

	03-04-2003 00:27									#5
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Also true. Would it be possible to get libraries in two of those three cities the next few turns? I know Hurricane won't work

BTW, I'm guessing Hurricane should start on a wonder asap, preferably the Colossus (palace prebuild, of course). In this case, it won't be possible to build a library the normal way there for quite some time. In this case, I'm actually in favor of disbanding one of our reg warriors there, and rush the rest of the library in one turn, to be as fast as possible on a wonder. The other cities, however, could perhaps simply start to build libraries there as first build, not necessarily rushing them. I'm not too convinced whether rushing will be more profitable there in the middle long term (I agree on long term)

DeepO

	03-04-2003 01:00									#6
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Good idea.
I'd support disbanding a reg warrior in Hurricane to rush a library in one turn. At this point in the game, reg warriors are only good for lookout jobs - if we send them to fight immortals or Bobian vet swords, they would almost certainly lose, and might grant the defender a status upgrade; and we'd rather not upgrade them and save the money to upgrade vet warriors.

	03-04-2003 01:14									#7
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Btw, sorry if this was dealt with elsewhere and I missed it (I don't keep track of all the economy discussions), but wouldn't it be wise to change the worker build in EotS to library, let EotS build some of it normally and rush the rest just in time to build a worker next in order to avoid going to size 9?
I figure that if we're using the lux slider to keep Hurricane happy at size 8, then why not let some of our other cities enjoy the same benefit?

	03-04-2003 01:29									#8
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By that time Hurricane will be size 11 anyways, so we can start building up EotS whenever we feel ready. We probably need some more Workers first, and adding them back later actually speeds growth too.

	04-04-2003 00:56									#9
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We are most likely going to enter a GA in the not-too-distant future (kinda scary, considering how small and undeveloped our civ is. At least we're a republic, though). That is going to boost our gold and shield output for 20 turns, obviously.

I was pondering the following:

In the lead-up to the GA (in other words, very very soon), shut off science and build/rushbuy marketplaces. During the first half to three quarters (at least) of the GA, build military units and hoard gold. During the last bit of the GA, build/rush libraries. At end of GA, resume research, now with markets & libraries in key cities.

Can we pull all that off (markets, libraries, military buildup)?

-Arrian

	04-04-2003 01:21									#10
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So... stopping entirely with research? Interesting idea... as long as we will be able to catch up later, it's worth thinking about.

As to whether markets, libs, and troops in those 20-odd turns: maybe. The problem is that we need to build aquaducts and courthouses too, in between our units. So rushing them with horded gold might be an option, but outright building them might be a bit of a problem. It will undoubtedly be better in the long run, if we can do both at the same time, so that a possible war with Vox does not get delayed because we're building libraries.

DeepO

	04-04-2003 02:02									#11
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The main point is the order: marketplaces first, hoard cash, libraries later, then research.

Does that sound like a good idea to you?

-Arrian

	04-04-2003 02:47									#12
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I like it Arrian.

Tempest, EotS, and Hurricane are definitely going to be our best cities, at least at the start of the GA. They all will be able to produce 30 shields per turn (EotS and Hurricane running a -1 food deficit).

Possible builds in our 30 shield cities:

Marketplace 100 (feudalism): 30, rush 40 (med inf, 40g), 70, 100. Trades 40g for 30 shields. Build time: 3 turns
Library 80 (no chivalry): disband reg Warrior, rush 20 (WC, 72g), 50, 80. Trades 72g + Warrior for 30 shields. Build time: 2 turns.
University 120: 30, 60, 90, 120 Build time: 4 turns.

Temple 30: 30 Build time: 1 turn.
Cathedral 60: 30, 60 Build time: 2 turns.

So in 9 turns we could build every improvement we need in those 3 cities. 12 and we could jumpstart our culture, and maybe bring our luxury rate down. Lux at 20% puts us in WLTKD everywhere else during our GA, so might be good to keep it so until we can secure some more luxuries. Arashi (size 10) probably will keep us from doing so for a while anyways.

Hurricane's time is probably better spent long term on the Collosus first, and so would take almost all of the GA to get set up. EotS may take a few turns to get to 30 shields/turn depending on how we use Cyclone, and Tempest needs 2 or 3 turns to get set up as well.

Last edited by Aeson on 04-04-2003 at 02:53

	04-04-2003 02:58									#13
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I sit in awe.

When you think about something... you think the matter through. Damn.

Oh, and yeah, I'm a big Colossus fan, so to that.

-Arrian

	04-04-2003 03:02									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, and do we have barracks in those 30-shield cities? If so, they can pump out a few 1-turn horsemen as well, which will save us some money on knight upgrades.

9 turns to actually build the improvements... and a "couple turns" to get them set up... call it 12 turns. That leaves 8 turns extra. With a barracks in each that's 24 units (18 horsemen + 6 pikemen sounds yummy). I don't think we have a barracks in each, though. So lower that unit total a tad. Call it 15 horsemen & 5 pikemen. Add that to our present forces, upgrade the WC/Horsemen to Knights, and that's a solid invasion force.

Edit: ack! I forgot to drop one of the cities due to Colossus building. Ok, so drop the numbers further to something like 12 horsemen & 3 pikemen. That's still solid, and we can still build some more units pre-Chivalry.

-Arrian

	04-04-2003 03:29									#15
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Hurricane has a Barracks. We can have a Barracks in either city very quickly if we want. Probably would be best to build all other improvements we are going to first, especially Marketplaces, as the Barracks can be the 40 shield rush if we aren't to Feudalism yet.

For the Barracks builds we'd want another 2 warriors to disband.

Barracks 40: disband warrior, rush 10 (worker), 40. Build time: 1 turn. Trades 32g + Warrior for 30 shields.

	04-04-2003 03:32									#16
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We'll have Tornado at 15 shields per turn about 4 turns into our GA, Bolderberg takes 5-6 probably to get there. Arashi gets to 15 shields per turn about halfway through our GA. They all should produce 10 per turn for the previous part of the GA. So it's still quite a lot of unit production before our 'big' cities are ready to kick in.

Typhoon will be at 10 shields per turn from the start, best bet for our navy.

	04-04-2003 17:23									#17
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Aeson, could you post a projection of what forces we'll have at the end of the GA, according to this plan of yours?

If we're looking for conquest of Voxian lands and peaceful development afterwards, this looks like a worthy plan- but what if Vox's military grows stronger- we might have to compromise and build some more units instead of improvements.

	04-04-2003 20:52									#18
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I'm not sure what the plan is...

If we go with lots of improvements in our big cities and a 1 turn Worker pump in Cyclone, it would look something like:

Tornado: ~300 shields of units
Bolderberg: ~280 shields of units
Typhoon: ~280 shields of navy
Arashi: ~250 shields of units

---------------------------

I ran through a straight military buildup (mostly) in the scenario thread. If we're going to make a play for a foothold on BOB, that's what we'd need to do.