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Frogman
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quote:
from BustaMike
It doesn't matter what the choices are if you don't care about the question. Religion attempts to answer the question. Atheism doesn't care about how we got here |
You have got to be kidding. You say atheism doesn't care how we got here. Any group as intellegent as atheists profess themselves to be must at some point ponder their origin, their existance, and the meaning of life and death. Claiming its a stupid question and then criticizing those who attempt to answer it isn't much of a platform to claim intellectual superiority. I really don't think you're speaking for atheists but out on your own thin limb.
Carl Sagan was a great mind, a great atheist, and the question haunted him his whole life. I know you guys don't get together on Sundays to get your beliefs in line, but there are some consistancies to most atheists but I'm interested to know if this don't care philosophy is that common. I think its not but I could be wrong.
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Frogman
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quote:
from St Leo
How did you go about doing this examination? I am not aware of anything supporting the idea of the supernatural that's anywhere near as good as a solid fossil (if you want better proof for the age of earth and the universe than that offered by palaeontology, try geology and astronomy). |
I don't think the mutation, natural selection model explains the step function we see in the fossil record. Things don't change over time. They appear fully formed, remain as an identifiable species for millions and even hundreds of millions of years, then they disappear. There is some other mechanism at work that is not explained by evolution.
Personally, I think there is more happening at the dna level in some sort of timed and ordered progression. Life, if it exists elsewhere, probably looks a lot like what we have here. There is a lot less left to chance than evolution theory would have you believe.
I don't know the answers, but I don't avoid the questions.
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:27
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Why god probably doesn't exist:
Mankind's own ignorance
People are not born with the concept of god in them. It is tought by someome at a time in which we all believe the lies we are told (Santa Claus ring a bell??). Unfortunately there is no-one to dispell the lie eventually and we end up believing it all our life.
Man has always tried to give an answer to all that he doesn't know, which is really stupid since we are not strong enough to actually admit we may not know something. That's why religions in the past were polytheist as there were many aspects of science we did not understand. What causes lightning? Who knows, probably a deity. What causes feritily? Who knows, some guy up in Mt. Olympus. etc. etc. etc.
Have you ever stopped to think who made these things up? Obviously the men in power. Read my sig, power is molding people's minds. No better way to do it than to claim to know the unknown, as ignorant people will not know better. By claiming the monopoly on knowledge, these people achieved their main purpose: obtaining the monopoly of power. It is no surprise that the religious elite have been in power for most of mankind's existence.
As time passed, people began shelving the polytheim thing and just worshiping one god. We still do. Why? because we may be able to explain many things about nature yet we are unable to understand ourselves, and what better way than to do it than submitting ourselves to a faith, to an ethic and moral code which has already been written and passed on generation to generation. I ask people this, is it possible to be a good person without adhering to any religious code? Yes, absolutely. Can you be happy without holding faith in a deity? Definietely so. Then why do we actually need religion? Beats me... perhaps people are afraid to find another truth, after all, renouncing faith has terrible consequences in most religions, let alone the social aspect if the people around you are very much into it.
I'm really amazed how people claim their religion to be the truth, the sole truth. No matter if you belong to the largest religion (catholic) or the lowest sect, over 80% does not believe what you do. Are we so arrogant as to claim we know the truth when such a great part of the world doesn't? It's silly. Who's right and who's wrong? probably everyone is wrong, but we won't know until we die. I for one do not consider myself a true atheist because there always exists the remote chance of seeing jesus or allah or buddah's face when I die. Not likely but possible, and since I don't know "the truth", I cannot claim 100% that god doesn't exist. 99.99% yes, but not 100%.
Anyway, no matter how much science advances, we are still too far off from knowing the true questions that drive the theologically-inclined: why are we here? where did we come from? who made us? who made the universe? Damn it people, JUST ADMIT YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER AND STOP MAKING IT UP BY BELIEVING THE LIES SOMEONE IN A ROBE TELLS YOU. THINK FOR YOURSELVES. ACCEPT THE FACT THAT WE ARE IGNORANT, THAT WE WON'T KNOW THE TRUTH UNTIL WE DIE, IF AT ALL
Once you accept that fact that you do not know it all will you actually find the truth, or rather, accept that the truth is nowhere to be found. And once you do accept this sad fact, it will be the most relieving moment in your entire life.
"The only way to make a believer lose his faith is if god himself tells him He doesn't exist". - Me
damn, this was one hell of a rant... 
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Frogman
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Urban Ranger,
I took a look at some interesting sites having to do with transitional forms.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
There is some interesting data there and I don't disagree that you can trace a path of lineage through dna comparison. I guess what I'm not satisfied with is evolutions ability to explain the complex functions and even more complex interdependencies between species. The concept of co-evolution, where two or more species must change at the same time starts to stretch the chance mutation model
http://fig.cox.miami.edu/Faculty/To...oevolution.html
I think there are other forces at work. Punctuated evolution was not predicted by Darwin. We don't yet know what triggers rapid changes or why these changes always move up the scale of complexity and not down. Seems that Life works against the laws of entropy.
I'm not stuck in any dogma, I'm just trying to apply logic to the data we have. To me the data points to a preordained pattern of change that is not necessarily limited to survival of the fittest, but rather the survival of the fit enough. To me there is a plan at work and not mutation and chance. I don't think these are irrational conclusions but others can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.
If I didn't want to discuss any of this with intellegent people, I could have gone to a host of other forums. I appreciate the chance to learn something new. It just surprises me that many atheists are dogmatic about evolution and think we have the whole thing figured out.
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Frogman
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Master Zen is mostly right. But there are plenty of people who are convinced God exists because they've talked to him. Just ask Neale Walsh who wrote the Conversations With God books.
Michael Creighton wrote an interesting autobiography called Travels. Its a true account of some of his life adventures. He has dealt with mediums, seen auras, and even spirits. Many people are convinced of a spiritual realm because of direct contact. I'm not one of them, but there sure are plenty out there. You can agree or disagree with a persons belief in this matter, but have no doubt that they are convinced beyond any doubt in their own minds.
I don't know for sure what goes on with these encounters, but I think there is a whole lot more to us than meets the eye. Just logic to the data, I don't think I'm unreasonable here.
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cyclotron7
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Drowning in Schnitzel
Jan 2001
time: 21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As far as I can see, Christian morality is frightening because it requires an external threat to impose the code. All this talks of fear of god and hell as punishment. |
That's an interesting take, but people who discover something to be morally wrong will continue to observe that even after the enforcer is removed. If there were no significant authority above me, even God, I would still not do a lot of things because I view them as immoral. Likewise, somebody who believes in God who loses that faith is not generally going to go out and commit sins even after they lose that belief, as they will still regard those things as morally wrong.
My point is, while authority figures like God may be the creator of moral codes in the minds of many people, these codes will not vanish if they are convinced that God does not exist. Moral religion is thus valuable regardless of truth in many situations.
I really think that, if most religious people were faced truthfully with Jack's question, they still would not commit any atrocity because they would still conceive of it as wrong.
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Frogman
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Urban Ranger
I'm a chemical engineer, so I've had all the thermodynamics anyone ever needs. Sure its a big system, but I never could figure out why they said that eventually the whole universe was headed for a state where everything would be evenly dispersed and break down over time. Two things always seemed to me to work against this principle. One is Life the other is gravity. As smart as we think we are, and as well as we think we understand the workings of gravity, we still don't know what the hell it is. Life is even trickier.
The fact that life gets more complex, not less, certainly does defy the logic of entropy which would suggest things break down, lose information, move to lower energy states. In the big picture, I know this must be true, but why is it that there is this one area that advances in the opposite direction?
I know we'll never get the answer. It doesn't stop the question though. I'm nominally a Christian, I know all the dogma, and I think there is some truth there. Sadly they still don't know crap about God either.
Here's my view of evolution in a nutshell. The laws that govern the universe made life possible under certain conditions, and wherever those conditions are met, life will form. There is a dna blueprint that starts at the cellular level. That dna changes on a timetable triggered by both environmental factors or perhaps even a counter. Once the dna change is triggered, a process of change takes place that is not dependent on chance but rather on an endpoint that will once again be stable.
I think humans will change at some point. Some factor will induce the trigger to change us and over the course of a few thousand years, we will become different. These changes are designed and predetermined and may happen to several populations at once.
You can throw God in there or not. You can shoot the crap out of my theory, I'm only guessing. I just see a lot more order and planning in this whole process than chance would seem to allow.
quote:
from frogger
"Yup. But I don't believe in God for reasons that would be generally subject to scientific scrutiny, as they're very personal and subjective" |
yup, no problem with that. Logic doesn't point me to God, He just embodies all the unknowns I can't explain and in the end I believe there is a plan. His Plan. I'm comfortable with that.
Regarding purgatory, it was made up by St. Francis I think. There is no Biblical basis for such a belief. Of course that doesn't stop it. Many if not most protestant faiths don't profess a belief in purgatory.
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KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Frogman
Regarding purgatory, it was made up by St. Francis I think. There is no Biblical basis for such a belief. Of course that doesn't stop it. Many if not most protestant faiths don't profess a belief in purgatory. |
I was discussing Catholic thology, not Biblical sources.
Even most mainstream Protestant thology contains a multitude of practices and beliefs not expressly referenced in the Bible.
EDIT: why did I spell theology twice in a row without an "e"
Last edited by KrazyHorse on 04-04-2003 at 12:28
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curtsibling
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of the Kill!
May 2002
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by NeOmega I used to confront Christians, but now only during debates about politics, especially when it comes to victimless crimes, do I bring in the forced Judeo-Christian values thing. I have yet to discuss religion's impact on this war... allthough beleive me, my mom is ultra Christian, and she thinks Islam is evil and that they worship the moon..... |
Nice one!
You have utilised the ultimate weapon against christians...LOGIC.
They ought to save their minds before trying to save their 'souls'....
Also, I would mention to your mother that in history, no people have never tried to kill or conquer in the name of the moon.
Anyhoo, good call,
I respect your stance on this, Mr NeOmega.
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04-04-2003 04:05
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