03-04-2003 07:06									#1
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From the NYtimes:

quote: Congressman Protests Use of French Marble By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 8:51 p.m. ET WASHINGTON (AP) -- A Colorado congressman is asking the Bush administration to stop making headstones for military veterans from marble bought from a French-owned company. If the Veterans Administration agrees to Rep. Scott McInnis' request, the additional marble would come from two other quarries -- one a Swiss-owned operation in the Colorado Republican's district. ``The French have done everything in their power to undermine the very troops whose sacrifice from which they now stand to profit,'' McInnis said in a letter to Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony J. Principi. ``To force the relatives of our servicemen and women fighting the war in Iraq to mourn their loss under a headstone supplied by a company with French allegiance is an insult that no American soldier or their family should be forced to endure,'' McInnis wrote. Georgia Marble Company has been quarrying marble in Georgia since 1884. In 1995 it was bought by Imerys, a Paris-based corporation. ``They've produced a product and quality that we think veterans deserve and at the price that taxpayers deserve,'' said VA spokesman Phil Budahn. Georgia Marble is one of three suppliers of marble for headstones to the VA. The other two are Vermont Quarries Corp., which is owned by two Italian companies, and Sierra Minerals Corp., which leases the Yule Quarry in Colorado from Pleuss-Staufer International Inc., a Swiss company. ``If we eliminate one of the three that will just make us more reliant on the other two,'' Budahn said. The statue of Abraham Lincoln at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington is carved from the Georgia-quarried marble. The building surrounding the statue is made from Colorado marble, as is the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery. Rex Loesby, president of Sierra Minerals, said the French ownership issue was just a small part of a larger letter he had sent McInnis, expressing concerns about the VA management of his contract. Loesby said his is the only quarry that can produce white marble, but the VA has been buying a large volume of gray marble for headstones at a lower price from Georgia Marble. ``I like to say I could survive ... and I can compete heads-up with anybody, but the truth is I can't,'' Loesby said. The headstone contracts are up for bid again this summer. Since 1973, the VA has provided more than 8 million headstones and markers, Budahn said, including bronze markers as well as marble headstones.

The question is, should we have IQ test for our congresspeople, cause a lot of Rep. congressmembers seem to be failing that standard miserably.

Lets see if the Congresspeople from Georgia have something to say.

	03-04-2003 07:21									#2
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Impressive.

In my entire lifetime, I have never witnessed such a bigoted and confused hate for another country that the one the Americans are spouting over the French.
I thought my country was anti-American. But when I see that extrent of anti-(put any people here)-ism, I think my country is pretty much US-apologist.

You Americans should really worry. Your paranoia is destroying the intelligence of your country at an incredibly high rate.

	03-04-2003 07:25									#3
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That's not my Congressman.

	03-04-2003 07:26									#4
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Well, what really gets me (I do expect some pinheadedness from congressmembers) is that:

1. The businessman from Colorado explicitly says that "hey, they might just outcompete me" and

2. This is a company in Georgia, using marble from Georgia, employing people from Georgia, but we are not supposed to use them cause a French company bought them? Whats this pinhead and their xenophobic imbecilic monkey allies in the right-wing of this country going to do? Ban foreign investement from states that don't do what His Excellency, his Lord and Savior, Son of God, Bush I's commands?

	03-04-2003 07:29									#5
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Our evil scheme is at work.
We will buy all your companies, so that you boycott EVERYTHING produced in America

Just you wait, Yanks

	03-04-2003 07:31									#6
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Start with that chain that owns all those radio stations, Clear Channels or something like that. Start there.

	03-04-2003 07:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Impressive. In my entire lifetime, I have never witnessed such a bigoted and confused hate for another country that the one the Americans are spouting over the French. I thought my country was anti-American. But when I see that extrent of anti-(put any people here)-ism, I think my country is pretty much US-apologist. You Americans should really worry. Your paranoia is destroying the intelligence of your country at an incredibly high rate.

Spiffor, you clearly know nothing about anti-france-ism in America. The fact that a congressman wants to protest French things may be stupic, but it is certainly not bigoted or hateful. The act was meant as a (albeit stupid) protest against French policy. The man does not hate french people.

If "the extent" of bigotry is described by this, you should be glad we live in a nation that uses boycotts and not libelous, conspiracy laden hatred and the desecration of the gravestones of heroes.

Oh wait, your nation does use those...

	03-04-2003 07:34									#8
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Nah, we need the morons who call for a boycott. They serve us.

	03-04-2003 07:40									#9
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It's kind of nice IMO that our country is finally gaining a good deal of consciousness here. The Europeans have been bashing us for a very long time, too many considering us fat stupid fundamentalist cowboys, with an inferior culture who they guard their superior culture against. Let it be known that two can play at this game.

	03-04-2003 07:40									#10
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Cyclotron :
My country has extremists just like yours. My country has stupid people who spout hate just like yours (even though I never encountered a Frenchman demanding to nuke the US).
The big difference between my country and yours, is that the media and the politicians don't play this game of hatemongering. In my country, the opinionmakers and policymakers try to cool down the heat. In yours, your opinionmakers and policymakers are fanning the flames.

In comparison to US' antifrancism, I must say France is pretty much US-apologist. As harsh as it sounds, your country's intelligence is going down, quickly.
Very quickly.

	03-04-2003 07:41									#11
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GePap... I think there might be something else going on here. I suspect that if the US doesn't use the Georgia company's marble, they might turn to marble from a company in... Colorado. Congressmen do that stuff all the time (ie, they are smarter than we give them credit for).

	03-04-2003 07:43									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It's kind of nice IMO that our country is finally gaining a good deal of consciousness here. The Europeans have been bashing us for a very long time, too many considering us fat stupid fundamentalist cowboys, with an inferior culture who they guard their superior culture against. Let it be known that two can play at this game.

So you'll defend your superior culture against ours by putting Georgian stonecutters out of work ?
There are ways to disagree with France's policy. Hatemongering isn't what I expect from a civilized country.

Edit : gah, I keep confusing Georgia and Viginia.

	03-04-2003 07:47									#13
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Look the businessman who wrote the letter states:

quote: Rex Loesby, president of Sierra Minerals, said the French ownership issue was just a small part of a larger letter he had sent McInnis, expressing concerns about the VA management of his contract.

And then this pinhead makes it all about the French. And no, i give very little credit to most congresspeople. I see very few of them who seem to be owrth a damn.

quote: It's kind of nice IMO that our country is finally gaining a good deal of consciousness here. The Europeans have been bashing us for a very long time, too many considering us fat stupid fundamentalist cowboys, with an inferior culture who they guard their superior culture against. Let it be known that two can play at this game.

Play what game? Boycott companies that function in America, employ Americans, and use American materials because they were bought by a foreign corporation? Last time I heard, European legislators are not playing that game, and with good reason, cause it is an incredibly STUPID thing to do.

God......

	03-04-2003 07:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Cyclotron : The big difference between my country and yours, is that the media and the politicians don't play this game of hatemongering.

So Le Monde didn't post a front page cartoon showing the US blazing a trial to Baghdad in the shape of a dollar bill?

	03-04-2003 07:51									#15
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Spiffor: How is this hatemongering? It looks like (retarded) boycotting to me.

The people of the US are angry at France's continued intransigence. I don't recall Bush making any inflammatory remarks, and congressmen are often just simple country folk themselves (since they, unlike parliament members, represent small actual districts of constituents). They aren't fanning the flames, but expressing popular feelings.

Making cracks about the intelligence of national groups seems to me far more bigoted than anything our congressmen have said about France.

	03-04-2003 07:51									#16
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quote: Le Monde didn't post a front page cartoon showing the US blazing a trial to Baghdad in the shape of a dollar bill

A front page editorial cartoon is proof of rampant anti-Americanism? since when?or is it better to leave the inflamatory political cartoons in the back page? yeah, as long as the kiddies can;t see it...lord know Americans don't read enough to get to the editorial page of the newspaper.

Please.

	03-04-2003 07:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Spiffor: How is this hatemongering? It looks like (retarded) boycotting to me. The people of the US are angry at France's continued intransigence. I don't recall Bush making any inflammatory remarks, and congressmen are often just simple country folk themselves (since they, unlike parliament members, represent small actual districts of constituents). They aren't fanning the flames, but expressing popular feelings. Making cracks about the intelligence of national groups seems to me far more bigoted than anything our congressmen have said about France.

did you read the article?

this is a company that has been in Georgia since 1894, and was bought by a french concern in 1995: and now it suddenly becomes French? So if the French buy all the companies that make American flags, you will boycott them as anti-American too?

	03-04-2003 07:53									#18
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DD:
AFAIK, this was neither a call to kill Americans, nor a call to attack their economy, nor a call to join Saddam, nor a call to ridicule the American people.
Imagine a drawing of Chirac kissing Saddam with a nuclear plant in the background. Would such a drawing be antifrench or anti-Chirac ?

Big difference between criticizing a policy and calling to hate a whole population.

	03-04-2003 07:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A front page editorial cartoon is proof of rampant anti-Americanism? since when?or is it better to leave the inflamatory political cartoons in the back page?

Although I have seen cartoons critical of France, I would not characterize any in my experience as inflammatory. We save those for other Americans.

	03-04-2003 07:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GePap did you read the article? this is a company that has been in Georgia since 1894, and was bought by a french concern in 1995: and now it suddenly becomes French? So if the French buy all the companies that make American flags, you will boycott them as anti-American too?

Like I said, retarded boycotting. The man clearly doesn't know what he is doing, and is obviously a fool, but it's not hatemongering. Boycotting a name is still boycotting.

	03-04-2003 08:01									#21
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I think a lot of this is because of the strange situation we find ourselves in, propaganda-wise. We're at war with a bunch of towel-wearing camel jockeys, but we've had it thoroughly pounded into our skulls that we can't give the towel-wearing camel jockeys a hard time about it like we usually would. So when the cheese-eating surrender monkeys give us an opening we come down on them instead.

Seriously, we can't demonize the enemy--part of the reason for this war is supposed to be saving the enemy. So all the Us vs. Them circuitry gets short-circuited and we just go for a convenient target.

	03-04-2003 08:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Spiffor: How is this hatemongering? It looks like (retarded) boycotting to me.

It directly aims French economic interests, and thus French employment (even though it'll misfire so much it'll hurt the Georgians instead). The aim is clearly to hurt the French people here.

quote: The people of the US are angry at France's continued intransigence. I don't recall Bush making any inflammatory remarks

He let Rumsfeld do it. Please note that I'm not an apologist of my president, and he has a good chunk of responsibility in the diplomatic fiasco between France and the US.

quote: and congressmen are often just simple country folk themselves (since they, unlike parliament members, represent small actual districts of constituents). They aren't fanning the flames, but expressing popular feelings.

Fair enough. This congresswoman is retarded and pushes forth irresponsible 'popular' demands, as per the general spirit instilled by FauxNews. I guess she deserves a congratulation.

quote: Making cracks about the intelligence of national groups seems to me far more bigoted than anything our congressmen have said about France.

I have spoken with enough Americans here to know all Yanks aren't stupid, far from it. And despite our disagreements, I don't think you are stupid either.
I'm criticizing the level of paranoia that is reducing the US' intelligence, i.e the ability to think rationally within the US institutions. Your institutions are acting extremely stupidly these times. It would be very wise to think about it, rather than supporting your ruling elite.

	03-04-2003 08:07									#23
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Here's just a few other "French" things you're going to need to boycot, courtesy of them being owned by Vivendi (a large number of which were previously owned by Canadians, I might point out, until Seagram sold their assets to Vivendi):

All products from the Universal group of companies, which includes the world's largest music company (including labels like Island, A&M, Geffen, Def Jam, Interscope, MCA, Motown, Universal and many others), Universal Pictures (the movie company) and its associated theme parks, several TV networks (including, ironically, the USA network), several video game companies (including Sierra and Blizzard), MP3.com, etc.

Of course, the French company Pernod Ricard purchased 39% of Seagram spirits and wines, so you can't drink Havana Club, Wild Turkey, Jameson, Chivas Regal, and many others.

Better make sure you don't have Michelin tires on your car either.

Or, you could just be mature and accept that different countries can have different opinions.

	03-04-2003 08:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A front page editorial cartoon is proof of rampant anti-Americanism?

It was a counterexample to Spiffor's statement that media and the politicians put a clamp on ati-american attitudes and not try to inflame them. I don't believe that such attitudes are that widespread in France anyway. The same can be said for the US as well.

quote: or is it better to leave the political cartoons in the back page?

That's where I'd put them. Along with the rest of the editorials.

	03-04-2003 08:09									#25
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Andrew :
This is a sensible post. However, I don't think the flames will abate by the end of the war. This has gone too far to be switched back to normal as soon as the war ends IMO.
Hatred is an efficient political tool when it is useful, but it becomes an uncontrollable monster once its usefulness is gone.

	03-04-2003 08:10									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It directly aims French economic interests, and thus French employment (even though it'll misfire so much it'll hurt the Georgians instead). The aim is clearly to hurt the French people here.

Uh, yeah, that would pretty much be the definition of boycotting...

quote: He let Rumsfeld do it. Please note that I'm not an apologist of my president, and he has a good chunk of responsibility in the diplomatic fiasco between France and the US.

Could you give me the quotes you found objectionable? I'd like to know.

quote: Fair enough. This congresswoman is retarded and pushes forth irresponsible 'popular' demands, as per the general spirit instilled by FauxNews. I guess she deserves a congratulation.

Not really. The representative is regionally elected, so they have to represent not only regional interests but regional opinions. The rep probably knows that their constituents are not too fond of France at the moment, and hopes to capitalize on that with economic action. The fact that it doesn't hurt France is irrelevant for the purpose of garnering a few extra dumbass votes.

quote: I have spoken with enough Americans here to know all Yanks aren't stupid, far from it. And despite our disagreements, I don't think you are stupid either. I'm criticizing the level of paranoia that is reducing the US' intelligence, i.e the ability to think rationally within the US institutions. Your institutions are acting extremely stupidly these times. It would be very wise to think about it, rather than supporting your ruling elite.

I'm not sure I'd call anger at France "paranoia." I additionally do not see any wide-scale "stupid" actions resulting from these events. Boycotting some marble company is hardly a massive trend. Commonplace stupidity is not endemic to our nation.

	03-04-2003 08:16									#27
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DD:
There is a very widespread criticism of Gulf War 2 in France, because it is deemed to only serve the egoistical interests of the Bush admin and the US, despite the propaganda. The cartoon you are referring to is hardly surprising, and I'm sure it has been very well accepted within the French public.
I still don't call this "hatemongering". The true hatemongering that I have encountered in France until now were the calls for jihad, and a pathetic email to boycott American products (I know no one who followed it).

Nothing like the spouts of hatred or ridicule I could have seen on Rush Limbaugh's site, or FauxNews could have done.
Nothing like your lawmakers trying to hurt the French citizens by pushing for boycotts.

	03-04-2003 08:20									#28
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I'm not sure I'd call anger at France "paranoia." I additionally do not see any wide-scale "stupid" actions resulting from these events. Boycotting some marble company is hardly a massive trend. Commonplace stupidity is not endemic to our nation.

That's good to know. I've thought people on your side of the pond became more obsessed by us than by their weewees. I sure hope it'll continue to be a marginal trend, and won't become mainstream.
Thanks for the explanations on how congresspeople are elected.

	03-04-2003 08:22									#29
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spiffor it's 5.30 in the morning, don't you ever sleep!!!!

	03-04-2003 08:26									#30
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I'm going to.
'night all