03-04-2003 19:25									#1
	W3 'Alva': Keep Scouting or Turn Back? Increase Your PM Length

What should we do with him? Should we keep him scouting the east peninsula, or bring him back for defense?

2 days on the poll, though we may not have that much time to make a decision (or it could be delayed a bit).

	03-04-2003 19:29									#2
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As I've said before I feel we should continue. If we continue "second-guessing" every action to try and optimize everything, we lose the effect of what we're trying to do. Other teams will have an agenda they stick to, and they will press forward. Sometimes good things will happen, and sometimes not so good things will happen. I feel that we have enough time to get a 3rd Warrior out (which is what the forest chop is designed to help us do), which is all we need to make sure our defenses are covered for now. Later that won't be the case, but we can't make this decision later.

	03-04-2003 19:32									#3
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Those who dare, win. Onward Alva.

	03-04-2003 19:41									#4
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I think he should keep going.

I don't think that the peninsular is much larger, as in my experience landmasses don't carry over the edge of the map very often and if they do then not by very much.

I think W'Alva probably only has a few (10-15) more turns worth of exploring to do over there then he can head back.

To turn him back now would just be inefficent.

	03-04-2003 19:54									#5
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There is one more variable involved in this formula. If we are going to "chop out" another warrior in 'Poly now (as I believe we are), Alva will not be needed for defenses. We will have 3 valuable assets - 2 cities (or 1 city + 1 settler) and 1 worker. WTheseus, WBigFurry & Wextraone should be enough to make us feel comfortable about our setup around Apolyton.

That said, I vote for exploring further into the unknown.

	03-04-2003 20:13									#6
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Scout it out. The peninsula might be larger than we think. We already know it extends southwards for a bit.

But keep an eye on those Barbs, too.

	03-04-2003 21:39									#7
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Keep exploring, but do so in a matter that avoids combat with barbs.

	03-04-2003 22:46									#8
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The main reason I suggested bringing Alva back is that we will only have enough Warriors around our settlements to defend our cities. We will have no "floaters" that can rush to the aid of a Worker, or that can provide escort duty for our next towns. This means that our plans (Numidian Mercs., Barracks, Granary) will be further delayed, because 15 turns down the line everyone is going to scream "more Warriors!".

This is exactly the kind of "optimization" which will help us in the long run. The main reason we're exploring the eastern area is because of curiosity. Most of us are probably quite bored right now, since there's not much going on. "Explore the darkness!" is the cure for our troubles. But, from a strategic perspective, we're not gaining much:

1. We're almost sure there are no civs in that direction.
2. Any "resources" in that direction (cities sites, Luxuries) are too far away for us to put them to good use until much later, giving us plenty of time to scout it out.
3. There are many Barbs running around, and the appearance of one or two near our borders will force us to scramble to build even more Warriors, in order to adequately defend our towns, Workers and Settlers.
4. CDG is either scouting that area already, or is not going to for a very long time.

Admittedly point 4 is the weakest one, but between that and ensuring a well-defended economy, I pick the latter.


Dominae

	03-04-2003 23:04									#9
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Dominae is right on this one. Go back. (I accidently hit the wrong option, so one more for that, not that it looks like it will matter.)

We need to pump out as many Settlers as fast as possible from Apolyton right now, and that requires units to guard them and our Workers. Exploration is important, but not if we have to limit our expansion to do so... especially given the odds of our exploration to the SE not being terribly significant in the time frame between now and when we can spare a unit to head that way.

	03-04-2003 23:15									#10
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Some risk must be taken.

	04-04-2003 02:29									#11
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We should not sacrafice on scouting; the unfortunate demise of WBetaHound has led us to this point. If we need another Warrior, build one. The cost of delaying 'whatever' is less than the cost of not exploring.

	04-04-2003 02:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree The cost of delaying 'whatever' is less than the cost of not exploring.

Please explain why you think this.

	04-04-2003 02:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree We should not sacrafice on scouting; the unfortunate demise of WBetaHound has led us to this point. If we need another Warrior, build one. The cost of delaying 'whatever' is less than the cost of not exploring.

I wouldn't say that's always the case. I would be inclined to favor the withdrawl of W3 were it not for us producing another Warrior in between Settlers (because of the forest chop).

With one of the NMs traded for 2 or so Warriors instead, I feel we can cover things adequately until our empire can start producing units on a more regular basis.

	04-04-2003 03:30									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

There are certainly doubts among the populace about our defense, so it is best to play it safe until we have enough troops that all of us are convinced we can spare one to explore.

I am with Dominae on this.

	04-04-2003 03:34									#15
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Okay, this is odd. About 5 or so people have expressed their desire for us to return W3 to Apolyton, yet there are only 3 votes registered for that. I know Aeson explained his problem, but there still seems to be a bit of a discrepancy here.

	04-04-2003 03:41									#16
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I think it's some sort of optical illusion.

	04-04-2003 03:42									#17
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I voted to return W3 to Apolyton as wel.

	04-04-2003 03:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip As I've said before I feel we should continue. If we continue "second-guessing" every action to try and optimize everything, we lose the effect of what we're trying to do. Other teams will have an agenda they stick to, and they will press forward. Sometimes good things will happen, and sometimes not so good things will happen. I feel that we have enough time to get a 3rd Warrior out (which is what the forest chop is designed to help us do), which is all we need to make sure our defenses are covered for now. Later that won't be the case, but we can't make this decision later.

I agree! GOGOGO Alva!

	04-04-2003 03:52									#19
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If we do keep going, can we go S? The hills look to be continuing that way pretty strongly, and there are forests down there too. E is still almost guaranteed to be Jungle. If it turns out to be a penninsula, we can come back by way of the E coast.

Given a penninsual, it's better for us to take a U shaped path than an S, as Alva will be in a better position at the end of his run, while uncovering the same amount of terrain. If it's not a penninsula, then getting S as quickly as possible would be advisable, as it probably rejoins the landmass and we don't want GCA to have any more time to block off exploration in that direction than we have to.

	04-04-2003 04:18									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we do keep going, can we go S? The hills look to be continuing that way pretty strongly, and there are forests down there too. E is still almost guaranteed to be Jungle. If it turns out to be a penninsula, we can come back by way of the E coast. Given a penninsual, it's better for us to take a U shaped path than an S, as Alva will be in a better position at the end of his run, while uncovering the same amount of terrain. If it's not a penninsula, then getting S as quickly as possible would be advisable, as it probably rejoins the landmass and we don't want GCA to have any more time to block off exploration in that direction than we have to.

Christ, you're right, that is forest!

This is why I don't like the standard tile set... I find it very difficult to distinguish between jungle and forest.

South it is. We'll aim to make a U.

	04-04-2003 04:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Adrian Hon I voted to return W3 to Apolyton as wel.

What is that, 6 people now?

quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think it's some sort of optical illusion.

Obviously.

	04-04-2003 05:36									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Trip - we can't all be online as much as you are. I have to rush off and grow GaN every now and again. You just caught me between posting and voting. And yes it DOES often take me several hours to vote after posting.

	04-04-2003 06:07									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I voted to continue to explore, but Dominae has almost changed my mind. My only question is does not turning back mean that we have to actually delay founding any cities due to a lack of defense?

If so, then we should definately go back. If not going back only means a bit more risk for our workers (like I originally thought), then I think the exploration is probally worth the risk.

	04-04-2003 07:23									#24
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The current build queue has 2 NMs in the plan. We can reduce that to 1 NM later and 2 Warriors sooner if the need presents itself (which it appears to have done so).

Nothing like 8 barbs wandering around us in all directions.

	04-04-2003 10:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Nothing like 8 barbs wandering around us in all directions.

Our early-game bad luck will only make for an even better story when we win this darn thing!

Optimistically yours,


Dominae

	04-04-2003 14:35									#26
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by BigFree The cost of delaying 'whatever' is less than the cost of not exploring.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Please explain why you think this.

Sure. I believe that the information that is recieved through exploring is very vital. An example of what can only be achieved in the early game is WBigFree's situation now. If we hadn't had him in place before CDG built 'Goat City' we would have not gotten a unit down there to confirm a landmass West of CDG. This is just one example, and I hate to use it, but it illustrates my point for right now.

How many turns will it take us to produce another Warrior? Right now, 2 turns. To me 2 turns of delaying anything is worth being able to explore our surroundings. Nothing is certain. Relations with other teams are fluid. Even though our surrounding terrain is static access to the knowledge of what it is, is not. How many turns from now will we still be able to have access to this area? Nobody can answer. But I can answer that the chances for any land becoming less available for exploring increases with every turn, that is fact.