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Asher
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Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Boris just showed that "gay" as homosexual developed independently from "gay" as happy, the most common usage at the time. You're making an assumption and attempting to justify your case based on that assumption. That's shaky logical ground... |
Why do you not understand when to apply logic?
I'm a computer science major, and even I know that logic has its limits.
People's emotions operate independently from logic. If 99% of gays are offended by something, perhaps instead of dismissing them as as misguided fools, perhaps you could admit that the 2 of the people posting in this thread who argue otherwise are the misguided fools?
quote:
Maybe Agathon and I are the only one's who understand what "proof" is... :rolleyes? |
I know full well what constitutes a proof.
No one in here has come close to proving anything, on either side.
But that's fine, because it's not possible. You and Agathon have attempted it, failed miserably, and demanded that we prove that it's insulting because it's related to the sexuality.
You're intentionally being obtuse, and you continue digging your own grave because of it. You KNOW you have no argument, which is why you've fallen back on "prove that gay means the sexuality when people are insulting eachother" because you know it's impossible to do. You've somehow pinned your success on the perceived failure of us to prove something.
It's not a very clever trick, in fact it's something that's quite lame and obvious to everyone reading this thread.
I'd suggest you cut your (heavy) losses and abandon this thread, like you bragged about doing a few posts ago...
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
quote:
claim that using gay as an insult somehow doesn't insult gays. |
We're claiming that "gay" is not an insult, therefore gays who are offended by it are misguided. Jesus Christ, can't any of you understand Agathon's argument? No wonder you think it's pathetic; you can't even comprehend what the man is saying...  |
Your cognitive abilities are amazingly low, considering we've said time and time again that it IS an insult, whether you intend it to be or NOT. That you can't grasp that is baffling.
Agathon is committing one of the most basic logical fallacies by using the Appeal to Ignorance: "unless you can absolutely prove A, you can't disprove B, can you?"
He is also ignoring Occam's Razor, which is that the simplest answer is the most likely. It's HIS burden to disprove the simplest answer.
Fact: Gay = homosexual was commonly in use by 1970s.
Fact: Gay = stupid/bad came into use probably early 1990s
Fact: In the period when gay = stupid/bad began coming into use, homosexuals were still widely not accepted and viewed mostly negatively
Fact: Of all the places where such negative attitudes towards homosexuals exist, schools are probably the most pernicious bastions of them.
Fact: School-age kids regularly taunt each other with homophobic slurs, calling each other "fags" and "queers" and "cocksuckers."
Now, given all those facts, tell me...is the most logical (i.e. simplest answer):
A) Some people decided to use gay= stupid/bad to mock a stereotype of the effeminate "fairy," despite that they used (against all common sense) the general word for homosexuals instead of "fairy" or such.
or
B) Gay = stupid/bad came into being because people thought being gay was stupid/bad and therefore saying something was "gay" was a great way to deride it?
It won't take most people too long to think about which is more logical.
Oh, and answer me another thing... we all know "queer" also can be used to denote homosexuals, right? And I have heard from our youth the phrase, "That's so queer," being used EXACTLY as "gay" is used in such a phrase (stupid/bad). Now tell me, is that just an outrageously odd coincidence that two words referring to homosexuals are used interchangeably as synonyms for "stupid/bad."
I am getting my  arsenal ready.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The listener does not have sole authority over determining whether a word is an insult or not. If they did, "niggardly" would be an insult. So would "chincanery" and "gypped". Whether a word is an insult is not determined by either the speaker or the listener, but by societal norms. Why YOU can't grasp this simple point is what's truly baffling... |
Once again, you're playing a word game, since
1. Niggardly is not now nor has ever been used as a group identifier.
2. Niggardly has no etymological relationship to the word "nigger," which is an entirely different word.
Gay is gay--the word is the same, for christ's sake. Not only that, the bad/stupid meaning came AFTER it already meant homosexual. You are continually side-stepping the crux of the argument and relying on dumb smoke and mirrors.
I was not around when gyped or chicanery were coined...but had I been, I would have no problems with people voicing objections over such usage. The fact that the unthinking majority was able to slip those into common usage during a time when consideration for minorities wasn't of much concern is IRRELEVANT to this debate.
Once more... is going around using "jew" as a synonym for stingy or cheating acceptable? Should it be tolerated in schools?
quote:
Gay is not made an insult just because you say it is. You need to prove that it is, which you have not been able to do. |
I rather succinctly did in the last post, you are not responding to it, no doubt because you are unable.
quote:
I've never heard "that's so queer" used. Since I'm surrounded by immature twits out here in Nebraska, I probably would've heard it if it actually existed... |
So you now accuse me of lying? Last gasp of the cornered debater. Trust me, I have heard it several times. I can remember hearing people use it when I was in high school, which was 10 years ago!
There isn't any logical basis for your claim that it isn't an insult anymore, so we're waiting for what other fantastical claims you can make on how making a group identifier into an synonym for stupid/bad is somehow not an insult to members of that group.
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05-04-2003 09:51
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