04-04-2003 10:20									#31
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Oh, yeah, well whatever. Point is, America has successfully roped in at least one other nation of significance, and I'm tired of people claiming it's unilateral.

Besides, isn't the United States Government a governing body?

	04-04-2003 10:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Most hockey players are Canadian.

Ya but most of the European players are said to be polite during interviews.

	04-04-2003 10:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The decision to attack was not a group decision. Therefore it was a unilateral decision.

By your definition every decision is unilateral unless it spontaneously occurs to everybody involved at once, without anyone mentioning it to anyone else.

Going off and asking people if they're on board is hardly distinguishable from discussing it. We discussed it with the British and they were game. We discussed it with the French and they weren't.

If you're bent out of shape because American foreign policy decisions aren't made in Paris, that's your problem. Don't call it unilateral though.

	04-04-2003 10:23									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Ya but most of the European players are said to be polite during interviews.

What can I say, they good role models.

	04-04-2003 10:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai These kids were probably in a typical greyhound-type bus. Odds are the protesters only saw the USA painted on the bus and reacted to it. They probably never noticed who was in the bus. Then again, if the protesters knew it was just a bunch of kids then, ya, the protesters were jerks. But I think it is more likely that the protesters didn't see the kids.

Hmmm. A lot of people on Poly, and elsewhere, go out of their way to say they are not Anti-American, but are opposed to the American government.

So, what does making lewd gestures a bus have to do with how old the passangers of the bus were? You think they should not have realised that there were most likely a lot of Americans on it? Children included?You seem to think it is OK to harass people, joe or johnny citizen, for the actions of their government. What does that say about you?

BTW, was the ref not aware he was officiating over a pee-wee hockey game?

	04-04-2003 10:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Oh, yeah, well whatever. Point is, America has successfully roped in at least one other nation of significance, and I'm tired of people claiming it's unilateral. Besides, isn't the United States Government a governing body?

Are you claiming that the US governemnt has governing authority over Iraq?

The UN specifically has the solution of international disputes as its mandate. I'm not sure what the mandate of the Arab league is (suspect its more limited wrt members), but at least it has some claim. The US has no claim to governing authority over Iraq. Therefore any attack by the US without the permission of a suitable authority (Iraq's government, UN, etc.) is unilateral. It may or may not be justified by self-defense, humanitarian concerns etc., but it is unilateral, regardless.

	04-04-2003 10:31									#37
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither BTW, was the ref not aware he was officiating over a pee-wee hockey game?

As I recall, our refs were usually 15-18 years old.

And that comment seems a bit fishy (I buy the rest, but most refs that I had experience with were trying to get through games with as little trouble as possible, not looking to incite it)

	04-04-2003 10:34									#38
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Yes, Frogger. But things are a bit heated at the moment, and some of the morons are dropping their cover.

After all, we have a person here in this thread, who is usually fairly liberal, who thinks that harassing people based on nationality is somehow justified, in this case.

	04-04-2003 10:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither You seem to think it is OK to harass people, joe or johnny citizen, for the actions of their government. What does that say about you? BTW, was the ref not aware he was officiating over a pee-wee hockey game?

The protesters were not harassing the kids. The protesters were exercising their freedom of speech. Or is it now against the law to give someone the finger? Like I said before, the hockey players were not attacked. The bus was not attacked. There was no violence. So no problem.

And yes, in a democratic society we are ultimately responsible for the actions of our government. We can offer support, or protest against it.

Yes, the ref was out of line, if he did make those comments, but we don't know what was said.

All we have is one side of the story.

	04-04-2003 10:39									#40
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It's possible NYE...and if true should get the guy barred from reffing. But it could also be the exaggeration by the kids of what was more likely (a crowd which was likely already gathered saw a Greyhound with "USA" emblazoned on it and decided to start chanting away at it)

I hope that if they'd known there were loads of kids on the bus they'd have the sense to shut the **** up.

	04-04-2003 10:58									#41
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Actually, I would hope that fewer people would be genuinely Anti-American. However, I feel that is a forlorn hope, since I am not really going to be able to do anything about it.

I don't think that the 'Amercians are bastards' was a misstatement as an MP pleaded it was. Rather, I think it is a deeper form of bigotry. We all pretend we are so enlightnened, that we are advanced. To be honest, I see a lot of people still more than willing to engage in tribalism and intolerance of differing ideologies.

This case of the bus is just an obvious example. One that many Americans are not likely to forget.

	04-04-2003 11:09									#42
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Tingkai, I think you fail to realize that while being a d*ck is not illegal, these actions were bigoted and should be avoided. It's a terrible shame that people behave like this, of any age. Just as the KKK is disgusting and yet legal, such blatant displays of bigotry and hatred are disgusting, regardless of whether they are exercising freedom of speech or not.

Laws are not the ultimate arbiter of morality, as there are certainly many legal acts that are deeply immoral and unacceptable in civilized society. This is one of them.

	04-04-2003 11:17									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Actually, I would hope that fewer people would be genuinely Anti-American. However, I feel that is a forlorn hope, since I am not really going to be able to do anything about it. I don't think that the 'Amercians are bastards' was a misstatement as an MP pleaded it was. Rather, I think it is a deeper form of bigotry. We all pretend we are so enlightnened, that we are advanced. To be honest, I see a lot of people still more than willing to engage in tribalism and intolerance of differing ideologies. This case of the bus is just an obvious example. One that many Americans are not likely to forget.

I don't particularly care that much, NYE.

Tire slashings in florida. Merchants refusing to ship to Canadian customers (even if they provide an American address). "Freedom Fries". Virulent anti-Gallicism on the front page of half the dailies in the States and on the tongues of most American commentators (beyond normal political criticism).

	04-04-2003 11:21									#44
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There are *******s everywhere. The point is that we've been lucky enough generally to have our society reject the hateful sentiments. Our newspapers aren't running editorials that sound suspiciously close to racism. When our pols **** up they have to resign or apologise. The G&M reports the previous story (IIRC, I heard it from there first) and condemns it.

	04-04-2003 11:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Tire slashings in florida. Merchants refusing to ship to Canadian customers (even if they provide an American address). "Freedom Fries". Virulent anti-Gallicism on the front page of half the dailies in the States and on the tongues of most American commentators (beyond normal political criticism).

With the possible exception of the tire slashings, none of those even approach the scale of vicious hatred exhibited in such occurences as that which this thread discusses. I have yet to see such an act in America, but they seem to be more and more common in France and Canada.

I am impressed at our tolerance, and dismayed at your apparent lack thereof.

	04-04-2003 11:24									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I Tire slashings in florida. Merchants refusing to ship to Canadian customers (even if they provide an American address). "Freedom Fries". Virulent anti-Gallicism on the front page of half the dailies in the States and on the tongues of most American commentators (beyond normal political criticism).

Given the repulsive behavior of our "allies", Canada included, this sort of stuff looks pretty minor to me. Defacing the graves of WWI soldiers in France???!!!!

	04-04-2003 11:26									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I don't particularly care that much, NYE. Tire slashings in florida. Merchants refusing to ship to Canadian customers (even if they provide an American address). "Freedom Fries". Virulent anti-Gallicism on the front page of half the dailies in the States and on the tongues of most American commentators (beyond normal political criticism).

Ahh, so. An eye for an eye. Is that it? Since Canada can't sway the US into using our prefered methods of international consensus building, and since some Yanks are ignorant jack-asses, we should do as much as possible to pee off as many more Americans as possible. Maybe, if we try hard enough, we can displace France as the most loathed in the lower 48.

At what point do we stop poking each other in the eye?

	04-04-2003 11:26									#48
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Bullshit. Have you even watched CNN in the last 3 months?

First off, nothing the *******s did was illegal. It wasn't violent and it wasn't destructive.

Secondly, you've got supposedly respectable columnists and commentators on air (on a station received around the world, BTW) using ethnic stereotypes to depict Europeans and looking rather pleased with themselves.

Thirdly, your congressmen have been out in full force lately wrapping hatred in the American flag. And unlike here, they aren't fired or forced to apologise; they're lauded for it.

	04-04-2003 11:26									#49
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I am impressed at our tolerance, and dismayed at your apparent lack thereof.

Yeah right. American sport fans routinely boo the Canadian national anthem,even when we were supporting the war in Afghanistan, even right after four Canadians were killed by an American pilot.

We don't go around screaming about how the Americans are anti-Canadian. We don't go around screaming about how we should cut our trade links. We don't even retaliate. More often then not, if American fans boo our anthem, we respond by cheering their anthem just to prove how civilized we are.

	04-04-2003 11:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Tingkai, I think you fail to realize that while being a d*ck is not illegal, these actions were bigoted and should be avoided. It's a terrible shame that people behave like this, of any age. Just as the KKK is disgusting and yet legal, such blatant displays of bigotry and hatred are disgusting, regardless of whether they are exercising freedom of speech or not. Laws are not the ultimate arbiter of morality, as there are certainly many legal acts that are deeply immoral and unacceptable in civilized society. This is one of them.

Come on, you can't compare vocal opposition to American foreign policy with the KKK. That's just stupid.

	04-04-2003 11:29									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ahh, so. An eye for an eye. Is that it? Since Canada can't sway the US into using our prefered methods of international consensus building, and since some Yanks are ignorant jack-asses, we should do as much as possible to pee off as many more Americans as possible. Maybe, if we try hard enough, we can displace France as the most loathed in the lower 48. At what point do we stop poking each other in the eye?

I didn't say I was in favour of booing and jeering at people because of their country of origin. But to watch Americans get sanctimonious about a couple of incidents which have been quickly disavowed by the majority of our society after watching the **** that's been going on down South without a public backlash gets my hackles up.

	04-04-2003 11:29									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Thirdly, your congressmen have been out in full force lately wrapping hatred in the American flag. And unlike here, they aren't fired or forced to apologise; they're lauded for it.

Whose been fired?

	04-04-2003 11:30									#53
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The beauty of this whole event is how it is pulling the true anti-Amerciacn feelings out of people around the world. Hopefully, our leaders won't forgiven and forget, as we so often do.

	04-04-2003 11:30									#54
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What's the big deal? There's nothing wrong with a little rivalry between kids. I did the same sort of **** on school teams.

	04-04-2003 11:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by LoneWolf Given the repulsive behavior of our "allies", Canada included, this sort of stuff looks pretty minor to me. Defacing the graves of WWI soldiers in France???!!!!

Excuse me. When the US was attacked by terrorists, Canada came to your aid. We sent troops to Afghanistan. We sent, and have, ships in the Persian Gulf patrolling against terrorists.

And how has the US responded. Like a bloofdy bunch of ingrates (sp?). When an America pilot attacked and killed four Canadian soldiers, what happened to him? Even though there was enough evidence to charge him with manslaughter, the American military decided to drop the charges.

Some ally.

	04-04-2003 11:31									#56
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Whose been fired?

What was her name? The moron character there...

	04-04-2003 11:33									#57
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She resigned. She was also a public servant, not an MP.

	04-04-2003 11:33									#58
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The other one (bastards) can't be fired. She's a backbencher MP.

She did come out one day later to "explain" herself, though.

	04-04-2003 11:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither She resigned. She was also a public servant, not an MP.

"Resigned" my ass.

So did Paul Martin, depending on who you believe.

It just looks better than a firing.

	04-04-2003 11:33									#60
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She explained things alright, through a smirk on Mike Bullard. I saw it. She was not the least bit sorry.