04-04-2003 14:35									#31
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"In capitalist societies, the state is run by the economic authorities. Nazi Germany was no different."

This is not true, it may become this way due to corruption, but in a capitalist society the State and economy are completely seperate.

Now for the definitions and debunking of some previous definitions:
Communism- The elimination of private property, collectivist policy towards populace, fully state controlled economy, those are the basic ones that all commies agree to. The ones they dont (but always seem to happen) are: elimination of democracy, severe reduction in human rights.

Fascism- private property allowed, collectivist policy towards populace, state controls MOST of the economy, in communism the state controls every last detail, in fascism the state only controls the big stuff (factories, mines, etc.). Unlike communists, fascists admit that they are anti-democracy, and usually admit to being pretty bad with human rights too.

Fascism, economically, is socialism that doesnt bother to pay lip service to the people.

IMO, they both suck, along with socialism that does pay lip service to the people. All three force the people to depend on the state for their well-being and sacrifice individual rights in the process.

	04-04-2003 21:52									#32
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The significant distinction between fascism and communism comes from what each sees as the princile and central aspect to the creation of individual and group consciousness.

For Communists, class, that is your economic station in life, is what creates your concisouness.
For facists, nation, that is the ethno-cultural group you belong to is the basis of your concsiouness.

From this basic distinction comes the differences between communism and fascism. Of course, the two share similar practical notions:

a belief in modernism, embracing the scientific
Mass mobilization: the creation of popuar movements as a means of action

	04-04-2003 22:58									#33
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quote: I suppose you could make the case that the economies of fascist states were more mercantilist than capitalist, though.

Bingo.

quote: except for the capitalism part; fascists had no problems with economic hierarchies any more than they had problems with political hierarchies

But economic heirarchies don't equal capitalism .

quote: In capitalist societies, the state is run by the economic authorities. Nazi Germany was no different.

In Nazi Germany (and more in Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain) the economic authorities were (somewhat) run by the state. You had targetted goals of production you had to meet (no matter how unprofitable), and then with the rest, you could be capitalist.

It wasn't really capitalist, but there were elements of that, just as there were elements of USSR Communism.

	04-04-2003 23:02									#34
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Agathon: Your decription of Fascism is very good .

quote: a belief in modernism, embracing the scientific

Well in Fascism, it was only a belief in scientific modernism. Social modernism was right out . I mean, these guys were on further right than Jerry Falwell in terms of social policy.

	04-04-2003 23:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Typical one-dimensional political thinking. Worse than that, it's fairly deliberately stilted....

Explain yourself? Are you confused?

	04-04-2003 23:17									#36
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I think everyone is missing the point and looking straight a comparing Hitler and Stalin. As totalatarian states they both had quite bit in common, but the ideology was immensley different.


You'd all probably do better looking at marxist rightings and fascist rightings then in the actually states the produced, i mean, the Soviet form of communism wasn't really what marx (or Lenin) had in mind, and Nazism wasn't really fascism in the sense that Mussolini's italy was, Nazism is something else allthogether.

	04-04-2003 23:34									#37
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Ahh, Imran, Agathon did not post.

	04-04-2003 23:38									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well in Fascism, it was only a belief in scientific modernism. Social modernism was right out . I mean, these guys were on further right than Jerry Falwell in terms of social policy.

Not really, at least not at the time we are speaking about; Eugenics was an up and coming field, and the Nazi's in particular were pioneeers of various pulic health moves that do have aspects of social modernism, like camaing against animal cruelty and smoking.Of course, their mysogenism, sexism, and rampant homophobia certainly are testiments to their narrowmindedness, but its not like you see such attitudes in various parochial societies. the thing is, the nazi's justified them using "modern, scientific" notins and not just invoking tradition.

	04-04-2003 23:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Explain yourself? Are you confused?

No, he's got a point. Here you are telling us that fascism is more complicated than a point on the straight right-wing-left-wing continuum; no, this particular complex ideology, it seems, is a point on a circular drawing. I personally think fascism was a "point" on the top of Mussolini's fat obsessive bald-guy head, if anything. Don't crap on my definition, which was based on my readings of Mussolini's Fascism, BTW, and present me with a powerpoint aid in its place. Hmph.

	05-04-2003 00:11									#40
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I think we can argue this topic day and night and never come to an agreement. Since I'm biased and a member of the CPA I won't reply with inflammatory rhetoric.

Sheik-what most people have basically agreed upon without actually saying it is that Fascism is a more right-wing, state-controlled government. State-controlled as in the leaders are not actually elected per se, but rather appointed.

Communistic leaders would be elected from party members (nevermind there only being one party).

Additionally, the fact of "struggle" being part of both political ideologies are also correct. Fascism's struggle is more politically and socially motivated whereas Communism is more motivated by economics.

Unfortunately, Sheik-both of these ideologies branch off into different spectrums. For example, we associate Fascism with Nazi's and Communism with Stalin. It is not so cut and dry. Fascism contains different aspects and National Socialism (Nazi) is just one part of Fascism. Similarly, Communism has different components such as Stalinism and Maoism.

But basically, just get the jist of what people are saying and you'll be able to figure out what all these ideologies stand for.

	05-04-2003 00:31									#41
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Imran, it wasn't Agathon. the avatar got you confused.

Good stuff from GePap

	05-04-2003 01:22									#42
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quote: This is not true, it may become this way due to corruption, but in a capitalist society the State and economy are completely seperate.

There has never been a capitalist society where the state and economy are completely seperate.

quote: But economic heirarchies don't equal capitalism .

But they're important parts of capitalism. At least, that's how I would define capitalism as. But what I was getting at is that fascist societies had no problems with wealth disparities.

quote: In Nazi Germany (and more in Mussolini's Italy and Franco's Spain) the economic authorities were (somewhat) run by the state. You had targetted goals of production you had to meet (no matter how unprofitable), and then with the rest, you could be capitalist. It wasn't really capitalist, but there were elements of that, just as there were elements of USSR Communism.

I wouldn't say that the level of statism qualifies a society as capitalist. Just as it doesn't qualify a society as socialist. Libertarianism and fascism are capitalist ideologies, just as Anarchism and communism are socialist ideologies.

quote: Does that mean the Cuba can't be socialist because it's agrarian and not indutrial? I don't see such a major divide between the style of economic governance in (to take two examples provided thus far) Franco's Spain and Hitler's Germany.

The basis of fascism, state "mediation" in competetition between private businesses (corporatism, mercantilism, whatever you want to call it) played a significantly lesser degree in Spain than in Germany or Italy. The Spanish Fascist organization, the Falange, was co-opted and marginalized by Franco. You rather see in Franco's Spain, Duvalier'a Haiti, Bautista's Cuba, Somoza's Nicaragua, etc., etc. the state run by elements of the RCC and landowners with their interests supported instead of that of the industrialists.

	05-04-2003 01:35									#43
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quote: Ahh, Imran, Agathon did not post.

Ooops, Jarvis has the same avatar .

quote: Not really, at least not at the time we are speaking about; Eugenics was an up and coming field, and the Nazi's in particular were pioneeers of various pulic health moves that do have aspects of social modernism, like camaing against animal cruelty and smoking.

They also wanted to go back to the 'good old days'. Women were supposed to go back to child rearing and cooking. They wished to reverse the Enlightenment, which they felt was generally a bad thing.

	05-04-2003 01:38									#44
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quote: But they're important parts of capitalism. At least, that's how I would define capitalism as.

Your definitions are crap .

quote: But what I was getting at is that fascist societies had no problems with wealth disparities.

Neither did mercantalism, but that isn't capitalist either.

quote: Libertarianism and fascism are capitalist ideologies, just as Anarchism and communism are socialist ideologies.

Um... no. Fascism isn't a capitalist ideology AT ALL. The main fascist thinkers were anti-capitalist. Read what Mussolini had to say about capitalism and how it divides people. There was great state control over means of production. The state took over labor negotiations and dictated production targets.

That's like saying Stalinism is a socialist ideology (btw, I think that is crap).

	05-04-2003 01:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui They also wanted to go back to the 'good old days'. Women were supposed to go back to child rearing and cooking. They wished to reverse the Enlightenment, which they felt was generally a bad thing.

Women were supposed to go back to child rearing because that was their "intended" biological place, not just cause it was the "good old days". Also, the nazis revolutionized the place of women in Germany by instituting groups which allowed women to leave their families care and become part of some Nazi party group. No longer did daddy or mom tell girls what they could or could not do: they were individual members of the party, no lower than their parents, and in fact, as the future wombs of the state, they were in some ways part fo the vanguard if the state.

Fasicsm like Communism works to break the old bonds of family, since both ideologies see this as an outdate bond, and one that draws attantion away from the more improtant aspect of ones being, either class or nation.

	05-04-2003 01:56									#46
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quote: Um... no. Fascism isn't a capitalist ideology AT ALL. The main fascist thinkers were anti-capitalist. Read what Mussolini had to say about capitalism and how it divides people. There was great state control over means of production. The state took over labor negotiations and dictated production targets. That's like saying Stalinism is a socialist ideology (btw, I think that is crap).

In fascism, the state doesn't have absolute control over the means of production, just as in Stalinism the state doesn't have absolute control over the means of production. In fascism, the state organizes and mediates between those who ostensibly control the means of production in the interests of national unity. Capitalism is not characterized by the lack of statism (again, hence, you see ideologies like anarchism).

quote: Neither did mercantalism, but that isn't capitalist either.

I would say that fascism entails modern mercantilism (corporatism), and I would say that it's a subset of capitalism. Again, my point is that fascism doesn't see wealth disparity as a divisive issue to be abolished by the state.

	05-04-2003 01:57									#47
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GePap, I suggest you read Fascist texts from Mussolini and Barres. Women weren't expected to go back because of their biological place, but because it was MORAL. To say Fascism worked to break down the bonds of family is utterly silly. If anything it worked to stregthen them. The family was the most important part of Fascist society.

	05-04-2003 02:04									#48
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I own Mein kampf, The Italian fasicst reader, Everyday Life in Nazi Germany, Barres, all all the othert main authors of Fasicsm.

I also read them.

quote: If anything it worked to stregthen them. The family was the most important part of Fascist society.

The nation is the most important part of facist society. It is the core of fascist society. Only in so far as the family furthers the aim of the nation is family important.

	05-04-2003 02:08									#49
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Mussolini constantly wrote about the importance of the family. A nuclear family (so to speak) was to be emphaszed above all. It was the moral basis.

The nation is extremely important, but really because it is considered the extended family of the person.

	05-04-2003 02:20									#50
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Hmm, a nuclear family in Italy? What about grandpa, grandma, your uncleas and aunts, cousins and nephews, and all the other individuals who make up what Italians define as "family"?

To emphasize 'nuclear' families apart from the extended family is certainly not just a call to tradition, especially in Italy of all places.

quote: The nation is extremely important, but really because it is considered the extended family of the person

The person has no meanign outside of the nation. how then could nation just be an extension of person? That creates a sort of loop, no?

Who is your ultimate leader? Dad, or Il Duce? To whom do you owe final and total alliegence? If Dad asks you, for the good of the family, to kill Il Duce, do you do it? If Il Duce asks you, for the good of the Nation, to kill Dad, do you do it?

	05-04-2003 02:25									#51
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But WHY is that nation important? Why are all Germans or Italians better than anyone else? Because they are your family.

Il Duce is more important than your father, but that is because he is a father figure himself.

Maybe Mussolini didn't mean a strict nuclear family, but he believed very strongly that the man does the work, the woman stays home with the children. The extended family was important, but not like your own dad and mom (that's always been pretty true).

I mean, look at Germany. Hitler was 'father' to all Germans. That is WHY there is a focus on one male leader, because he is supposed to be your father. That is why he was shown with children and pets all the time. He was the moral father figure, who told you that homosexuality was wrong and women should stay barefoot in pregnant in the home because it was the traditional moral way.

	05-04-2003 02:29									#52
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Think about it.... almost every Fascist theorist has disdained the Enlightenment. I don't see how you could be a social modernist if you are anti-Enlightenment. Modernism was based on the individual.

	05-04-2003 02:34									#53
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No,

Nation is important because it is within the nation that you form your indentity. You are who you are because of the nation you live in, its values, language, culture.

Is your family American, imran? By blood? Yet you consider yourself American. is it because somehow yo had "American blood" poured into you? Or is it a result of your embrace of the Culture, of America?

Now, the question invariably comes as to how this individual, inherently special national identiy is formed in the first place. It is here that blood connection are important, if only because blood relatives are more liekly to stick together over time, and thus create their identity, just as workers have thier class identity formed at work (according to Communism).

The Leader may be a surregate "father figure", but what matters here is that the leader gives direction to the Nation, in ways the father does NOT give direction to the family, sicne the young eventually leave and become independent adults of their own. That's the thing about "nuclear families". Once the Kids are grown, the familiy has, to keep the annalogy, decayed. But the nation does not. The nation endures., and in its culture the identity of the new generations is formed, and hence become full human beings.

That is the fascist mindset about Nation.

	05-04-2003 02:46									#54
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You are forgetting the family aspects, GePap. By embracing the culture, you become part of the family. After all, when a son marries a daughter, the in laws become part of the family, even though their blood has not mixed.

The nation is important because every man in the nation is your brother and every woman in the nation is your sister.

What I meant when I said 'nuclear family' is what is expected of the genders. I didn't mean the actual configuration.

The Leader is the Godfather. No matter how old children get, they don't leave that family. They must always defer to the godfather. I guess that is another reason why some people refer to Fascism as a Thug (or Mafia) State. Everyone is family, and the Godfather is the Leader.

This is also why heirarchies are ok. If you brother is more successful than you, you should be happy for him.

This is why people that do not wish to be a part of family (the communists, the capitalists) are to be kicked out.

That is why Hitler is an extreme form of Fascism. He took the 'family' idea too far, to the level of being a part of it by blood. No one says Hitler isn't a fascist, but just that he is an extreme fascist.

	05-04-2003 02:52									#55
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GePap:

http://www.library.wisc.edu/librari...ism/Family.html

quote: The Fascist party encouraged the development of large families, here through articles and photographs extolling family life.

Like I said, by 'nuclear family', I meant the expectations of the genders. Mussolini was very big on family.

	05-04-2003 03:30									#56
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Saddam's Iraq is more like Nazi Germany than any state since WWII. In fact, Saddam outdoes Hitler in ruthlessness and in cruelty.

I think the common factors are between Saddam and Hitler are

1) a Furhrer.
2) a secret police composed of thugs, torturers and killers
3) a private army loyal to the leader to keep the other elements in line
4) elite troops controlled by the private army that keep the rest of the army in line
5) extreme militarism
6) all private enterprised subordinated to and potentially directed by the state
7) no independent power blocks, such as unions.

	05-04-2003 03:50									#57
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quote: There has never been a capitalist society where the state and economy are completely seperate.

There has never been a "true" communist state, but that doesn't stop the commies from lauding it. And your mostly true statement won't stop me from lauding capitalism independant from the state either.

	05-04-2003 04:19									#58
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quote: Saddam's Iraq is more like Nazi Germany than any state since WWII.

Are you sure you aren't forgetting the glorious Georgian steel-man?

	05-04-2003 04:35									#59
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Well, Stalin certainly had a police state, but the difference seems to be is that Stalin had a centrally owned and planned economy. Nazi Germany did not. I presume that Saddam's Iraq is more like Nazi Germany than like Stalin's communist paradise.

	05-04-2003 04:49									#60
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Actually, isn't most of the Iraqi economy state-owned (the oil industry, for instance)?

Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 05-04-2003 at 04:56