04-04-2003 07:28									#1
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Could someone please briefly outline the ideological differences between Communism and Fascism?

	04-04-2003 07:38									#2
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Fascism- Kill them all.

Communism- let's come together right now, to the sweet harmony.

	04-04-2003 07:43									#3
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I'm no expert, but communism is based on the equality of human beings within a state for the equal good of everyone. Fascism doesn't give a rat's patoot about individual right; Mussolini said that the Fascist individual is the state and vice versa. In a sense, Fascism is about the elimination of the individual will for the good of the state, which is held to be more important. I think.

	04-04-2003 07:49									#4
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If you think of the political ideology spectrum as a line, then the democrats would be just to the left of the center and the republicans - just to the right. (In the US, that is. In other countries, they may actually be a little further from the center.) Now, if you look waaaaaay on the left, you will see the communists. And if you look waaaaaay on the right, you'll see the fascists. So, basically, the fascists are ultra-conservative, and the communists are ultra-liberal.

As such, the communists believe that everyone should be equal, while the fascists believe that there is one superior group of people - be it race, cast, or whatever, - and that it should dominate all the rest. Also, then, the communists, like all liberals, but more extreme, believe in the ultimate equality - that is, absence of money. Indeed, if there is no money, then how can one person be richer than another? While the fascists, like all conservatives, only to the extreme, believe in moral qualities, and religion. But that belief is so extreme, it borders on the absurdity.

That's pretty much it.

	04-04-2003 10:17									#5
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Fascism and Communism hate each other so much that, taken to the extreme, they end up being disturbingly similar....

	04-04-2003 10:32									#6
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Communism is the believe that equality should be the end goal and thus we should eliminate class distinctions. That is the basic foundation. There are many, many, many, many, many different communist ideologies though, from worker democracies to pure Marxism.

Fascism is the belief that all the people should be united under the state. They hate democracy because it divides people into parties. They dislike capitalism because it divides people based on income. They dislike communism because it divides based on class. Fascists believe in an ordered structure for society (a heirarchy is good) and all should work for the good of the whole under the state, led by one leader, who is the embodiment of all that is good and moral. It's a very anti-individualist philosophy. There don't tend to be many offshoots of Fascist ideology.

	04-04-2003 10:35									#7
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quote: They dislike capitalism because it divides people based on income

Then why did the monied corporations flourish under Hitler?

They had no problem with capitalism, but were certainly not laissez-faire capitalists (i.e. they believed in the subordination of markets to the greater good of the State).

	04-04-2003 10:36									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Communism- let's come together right now, to the sweet harmony.

And starve to death.

	04-04-2003 10:42									#9
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quote: Then why did the monied corporations flourish under Hitler?

Corporations flourishing does not mean capitalism! Many, if not all, of these corporations became controlled by Nazi Party Members. Free enterprise (ie, easy entry and exist out of the market) was almost wiped out. This is basically a requirement for capitalism (remember, market doesn't equal capitalism either).

It's better to look at Italy's economic structure under Mussolini than Hitler.

Your statement is akin to saying 'Then why was there inequality under Stalin', responding to the query 'Communism believes in equality'.

	04-04-2003 10:46									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Then why did the monied corporations flourish under Hitler? Corporations flourishing does not mean capitalism! Many, if not all, of these corporations became controlled by Nazi Party Members. Free enterprise (ie, easy entry and exist out of the market) was almost wiped out. This is basically a requirement for capitalism (remember, market doesn't equal capitalism either). It's better to look at Italy's economic structure under Mussolini than Hitler. Your statement is akin to saying 'Then why was there inequality under Stalin', responding to the query 'Communism believes in equality'.

The point is that Hitler was someone that fascists generally claim as a shining example (though some with the proviso that the racist stuff was BS)

Communism as believed in today by communists is generally not Stalinist.

As I said, the capitalism practiced by fascist states was not laissez-faire, but it was capitalism and not really socialism.

As I understand it, fascism did not proclude private ownership of the majority of the means of production, so long as the businesses were conducted in a manner which was in accordance with the interests of the State.

	04-04-2003 10:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Fascism is the belief that all the people should be united under the state. They hate democracy because it divides people into parties. They dislike capitalism because it divides people based on income. They dislike communism because it divides based on class. Fascists believe in an ordered structure for society (a heirarchy is good) and all should work for the good of the whole under the state, led by one leader, who is the embodiment of all that is good and moral. It's a very anti-individualist philosophy. There don't tend to be many offshoots of Fascist ideology.

With that kind of broad definition, you could reasonably argue that the Roman Catholic Church is fascist (after substituting "Church" for "state")

	04-04-2003 10:54									#12
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quote: The point is that Hitler was someone that fascists generally claim as a shining example (though some with the proviso that the racist stuff was BS)

How many 'Fascists' exist these days that aren't racists? It's become equated with Hitler, and hardly anyone wants that.

quote: As I said, the capitalism practiced by fascist states was not laissez-faire, but it was capitalism and not really socialism.

Who said governmental control of the economy had to be socialism? There have been plenty of military juntas that weren't really socialism or capitalism.

quote: As I understand it, fascism did not proclude private ownership of the majority of the means of production, so long as the businesses were conducted in a manner which was in accordance with the interests of the State.

And what if the businesses were not accorded with the interests of the State?

In most fascist countries, corporations were dictated targets of production by the government itself.

	04-04-2003 10:57									#13
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Yes, but they were privately-owned, and privately managed for private profit.

I suppose you could make the case that the economies of fascist states were more mercantilist than capitalist, though.

	04-04-2003 10:59									#14
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quote: Who said governmental control of the economy had to be socialism? There have been plenty of military juntas that weren't really socialism or capitalism.

Most of these juntas (I'm thinking of the Latin American model here) were pretty close to what I'd term fascism, BTW.

	04-04-2003 11:13									#15
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The first three definitions of Communism/Facism were absurdly stupid. I have a test tomorrow and I have to go to bed, but if this thread is still up, I'll give an actual explanation of Fascism.

But, just a tid bit, vovansim, you are completely wrong. Fascists does not equal conservative. Fascism is not a conservative ideology. The ultra-conservative party of the Weimar republic was the DNVP, the German National Folk's Party. They regarded the Nazis as leftist radicals hiding behind rightist rhetoric.

The traditional Left Right line, with Communism on the furthest left point and Fascism at the furthest right point, is over-simplified to the extreme and misleading. This political spectrum is a bit more accurate. It has Liberal Democracy at one pole of the spectrum and totalitarianism at the other side. Fascism and Communism are polar opposites in ideology, but extremely close in methods and "functional beliefs", as is reflected in their proximity in the spectrum.

	04-04-2003 11:14									#16
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I'll post the spectrum soon

	04-04-2003 11:20									#17
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quote: Most of these juntas (I'm thinking of the Latin American model here) were pretty close to what I'd term fascism, BTW.

Nah, the Latin American-style right wing authoritarian state (including Franco's Spain) is quite different from your fascist states (Germany, Italy, etc.). Fascist states typically favor industrial interests while the Latin American model is tied to large landowners and the Church.

quote: Corporations flourishing does not mean capitalism! Many, if not all, of these corporations became controlled by Nazi Party Members. Free enterprise (ie, easy entry and exist out of the market) was almost wiped out. This is basically a requirement for capitalism (remember, market doesn't equal capitalism either).

In capitalist societies, the state is run by the economic authorities. Nazi Germany was no different.

	04-04-2003 11:22									#18
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I agree with Imran's definition of fascism, BTW (except for the capitalism part; fascists had no problems with economic hierarchies any more than they had problems with political hierarchies).

Last edited by Ramo on 04-04-2003 at 11:57

	04-04-2003 11:23									#19
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Here it is. Its not pretty, but I'm not too great with MS Paint.

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	04-04-2003 11:25									#20
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BTW, Imran's definition isn't as bad as the first few definitions, but its not entirely "correct", either.

	04-04-2003 11:44									#21
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Before I go to bed, here are 10 similarities between Nazism(contrary to Imran, there are different strands of Fascist ideology: Nazi, Italian Fascism, the Romanian Legion ideology just to name a few) and Soviet Communism, paraphrased from Stanley Payne's book "A History of Fascism 1914-1945", pgs. 210-211. These 10 illustrate the functional similarites between the two totalitarian regimes.

1. Nazis fel that the Soviets were their only truly revolutionary counterparts. (Nazis considered their party to be revolutionary, not conservative)

2.Shared a revolutionary action theory, believed in the value of successful ideological innovation

3. shared doctrine of constant struggle

4. rigid elitism and leadership principle

5. shared the idea of the proletarian as the basis of political action

6.Single party dictatorship, aim to tear down class system

7. Creation of a party army; army is subordinate to the party

8. Emphasis on militarization, promotion of revolutionary war

9.Economic Policy phase based on partial pluralism early in regime

10. International projection of new ideological myths capable of eliciting an international response.

	04-04-2003 11:49									#22
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4 quick areas of difference between pre-WW2 Italian Fascism and Nazism, also from Payne's book

- Nazi Germany was totalitarian, Italy was not (despite what Mussolini claimed)

-NSDAP much more popular support than the PNF

-Italian Fascists were not anti-Semitic

-Mussolini aimed for traditional Nationalist/imperialist goals for Italy. Hitler aimed for a radical racial restructuring of Europe based on the Germannic "Volk", not necessarily the German state.

	04-04-2003 11:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Before I go to bed, here are 10 similarities between Nazism(contrary to Imran, there are different strands of Fascist ideology: Nazi, Italian Fascism, the Romanian Legion ideology just to name a few) and Soviet Communism, paraphrased from Stanley Payne's book "A History of Fascism 1914-1945", pgs. 210-211. These 10 illustrate the functional similarites between the two totalitarian regimes.

Wouldn't say that I agree with all of these 10 points or consider all of them relevant.

quote: 1. Nazis fel that the Soviets were their only truly revolutionary counterparts. (Nazis considered their party to be revolutionary, not conservative) 2.Shared a revolutionary action theory, believed in the value of successful ideological innovation 3. shared doctrine of constant struggle

1-3 are ideals shared by nearly all ideologies, especially in their earlier phases.

quote: 4. rigid elitism and leadership principle

Not true for communism from a purely idealistic point of view.

quote: 5. shared the idea of the proletarian as the basis of political action

This applies to all modern self-respecting ideologies. Like democracy. Or religious fundamentalism. Or environmentalism.

Even right-wing corporate-loving ideologies need to at least pander somewhat to the populace.

quote: 6.Single party dictatorship, aim to tear down class system 7. Creation of a party army; army is subordinate to the party 8. Emphasis on militarization, promotion of revolutionary war

6-8 are true for all less-than-moderate dictatorships

quote: 9.Economic Policy phase based on partial pluralism early in regime

Granted.

quote: 10. International projection of new ideological myths capable of eliciting an international response.

Again, true for any ideology.


All in all what you have described are ideological dictatorships. We already know that fascism and communism are both ideological dictatorships - as if there isn't a government in the world that isn't ideological in some way.

So, that's two things in common between communism and fascism: ideological fervour and dictatorship. That doesn't mean that therefore they're the same thing.

	04-04-2003 11:58									#24
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According to Woosley, Clinton's CIA director, Iraq and Syria are today's examples of fascist states.

	04-04-2003 12:01									#25
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According to Saddam Husein, Iraqi president, United States of America and Great Britain are today's examples of fascist states.

So what?

	04-04-2003 12:04									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Nah, the Latin American-style right wing authoritarian state (including Franco's Spain) is quite different from your fascist states (Germany, Italy, etc.). Fascist states typically favor industrial interests while the Latin American model is tied to large landowners and the Church.

Does that mean the Cuba can't be socialist because it's agrarian and not indutrial?

I don't see such a major divide between the style of economic governance in (to take two examples provided thus far) Franco's Spain and Hitler's Germany.

	04-04-2003 12:07									#27
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist Here it is. Its not pretty, but I'm not too great with MS Paint.

Typical one-dimensional political thinking.

Worse than that, it's fairly deliberately stilted....

	04-04-2003 13:06									#28
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Communism is being able to **** your own people and getting left wing historians to support you.
Facism is being able to **** your own people and getting right wing historians to support you.

	04-04-2003 14:18									#29
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"The old one-dimensional categories of 'right' and 'left' , established for the seating arrangement of the French National Assembly of 1789, are overly simplistic for today's complex political landscape.

For example, who are the 'conservatives' in today's Russia? Are they the unreconstructed Stalinists, or the reformers who have adopted the right-wing views of conservatives like Margaret Thatcher ? .."

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

	04-04-2003 14:22									#30
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And one picture...

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