04-04-2003 09:45									#1
	Help the Poly Luddite set up a network Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

So I ordered the Dell late Monday afternoon; it said it would be shipped Friday, arriving 3-5 days later.

So, naturally, UPS knocked on my door this afternoon.



Anyway, I'm trying to hook the new computer up to the net. We have a hub that receives the cable modem input, and it is hooked up into both computers. It works fine on my fiancee's computer, always has--every post you've seen from me has been from her computer, including this one. But for some reason, I can not get the new computer to get on the net; had the same problem with my old computer. It's gotten far enough that it recognizes that there is a network and that there is another computer on it, but it will not work for the life of me. Help this poor, hopeless technophobe.

	04-04-2003 09:49									#2
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Here's a quick networking question: what's the difference between a hub and a router? And what can you do with one that you can't do with the other?

	04-04-2003 09:54									#3
	Put an end to popups!

You need a router, not a hub.

The difference is the router can be seen as a node on a network, not a hub. Since I presume you only get one IP for your cable modem subscription, only one computer can use it. The way to get around this is to use a router that has a proxy function. Connect the router to the cable modem, and connect your computers to the router. Doing so makes the other end thinks that there is only one computer connected, even though you can have 4 (or whatever number the router allows).

Also, a router allows every user to connect at full speed. A hub shares the bandwidth.

	04-04-2003 09:56									#4
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quote: Also, a router allows every user to connect at full speed. A hub shares the bandwidth.

The rest of your post makes sense, but this part doesn't.

If it's all coming in through the same modem then how come you can get 2 computers at 10 mbit/s when before you could only get 1 at 10 mbit/s

	04-04-2003 10:00									#5
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This Linksys Etherfast router is one of the more popular ones.

	04-04-2003 10:02									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: Also, a router allows every user to connect at full speed. A hub shares the bandwidth. The rest of your post makes sense, but this part doesn't. If it's all coming in through the same modem then how come you can get 2 computers at 10 mbit/s when before you could only get 1 at 10 mbit/s

Each computer connected sees only a dedicated channel. Granted, if more than one computer uses the Internet connection at the same time, the speed drops. That's not the case most of the time, though.

	04-04-2003 10:05									#7
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There's also a switched hub, which is very similar to a hub but everyone also has dedicated bandwidth.

I use a 5-port 100Mbps switched hub, and every single outlet gets 100Mbps of bandwidth. If this was a typical hub, all 5 ports would share 100Mbps of bandwidth.

A router functions similarly to the hub, but has some advanced firmware and programmability on it. You can use it as a sort of hardware firewall, you can make it share IPs across several computers easily, etc. It can also cause some headaches with some programs and stuff like Xbox Live though.

	04-04-2003 17:47									#8
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--"We have a hub that receives the cable modem input, and it is hooked up into both computers."

I assume this is actually one of those Cable/DSL routers with a switch built in. If not let me know exactly what you've got.

If it is, this should be simple. Recent Dell, so I'm assuming it's running XP Home. Right click on Network Places (or Network Neighborhood, whichever they've titled it), and select properties. Right click your LAN connection and select properties. Select TCP/IP and hit properties (see a pattern? ).

There should be a box checked that says something like "automatically find an IP address". If it isn't checked, check it.

--" what's the difference between a hub and a router?"

Ignore what these other people are telling you.

A hub is a simple repeater. What comes in one port gets repeated out all the other ports. It's the most basic way of connecting many computers together in a network.

A router is a different beast. It connects two different networks (a hub is within one network). It's a higher-level entitity, but it's kind of difficult to explain exactly what it does unless you're at least basically familiar with networks.

Think of it as the difference between a local call (hub or switch) and a long distance one (router).

As for hubs and switches, the first is a simple repeater (think party line; everyone shares the resources), a switch is pickier about what it sends where. It tries to send the information only to the specific client it's meant for, rather than just repeating it to everyone (standard phone line).

--" If it's all coming in through the same modem then how come you can get 2 computers at 10 mbit/s when before you could only get 1 at 10 mbit/s"

He is a little confused. Having a switch instead of a router won't do anything to speed up your DSL line. What it will do is speed up the connection between computers connected to your switch (no waiting for the other guys on the party line to get off the phone before you make your call).

Wraith
If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port
& the bus is interrupted as a very last resort
& the memory address makes your processes abort
then the socket packet pocket has an error to report!

	04-04-2003 20:25									#9
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That box is already checked, Wraith.

The setup that we have worked over a year ago, before we moved into our new place. We checked and rechecked to make sure everything was plugged in correctly once we moved, but for some reason my computer could no longer use the net. Which, naturally, makes me think we ****ed up somewhere... her father is the one who initially set everything up.

I just took a quick look at the hookup. (Take this with a grain of salt, since I am not technosavvy.) The cable comes into an external cable modem, which then sends input into my fiancee's computer. There is then a connection from her computer to the hub (I'll just assume this is an Ethernet connection), and then a connection from the hub to my computer.

In the setup that we currently have, the hub seems sorta... superfluous. Would it work if I just directly connected her computer to mine via the ethernet cables, or would that not make a difference?

When I bring up the Network Neighborhood equivalent on my computer, I can see her computer, but I can't access it. When I look at Network Neighborhood on her computer, I can not see my computer.


...don't worry. Though I seem quite stupid when it comes to this, I'm a fairly competant medical student, and I shouldn't kill any more than 1 out of the 4 of you who have responded thus far.

	04-04-2003 21:11									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

--"The cable comes into an external cable modem, which then sends input into my fiancee's computer."

Ah, I see. This would be a more complicated set up.

The easiest thing to do would be to get a cable/DSL router with the built-in switch, probably a four port. Then you can run the cable modem to the router, and run both computers off of it.

Running your computer through the other one would require setting up Windows ICS (Internet Connection Sharing). It'd be a bigger hassle, and it's one I can't really help with (partly because I dislike doing Windows tech support, and partly because I've never used ICS). You should be able to find guides on the net if you search Google.

Wraith
Hardware /nm./: the part of the computer that you can kick.

	04-04-2003 21:15									#11
	Suffering from ads?

I'm going to be attempting tos et up a network in the future aswell. I could get the dual lan optional feature on the a7n8x motherboard that I plan on geting - would that be of any use? From what I understand, it would allow me to connect my old computer to my new computer, and my new computer to my cable modem.

	04-04-2003 21:16									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

AFAIK, you can't do a peer-to-peer in XP Home, which is what you have now.

Anyway, you need two network cards in your SO's computer, and you need to make sure that both are bound to TCP/IP. If your ISP uses a program to connect to the broadband service, it should only bind to the network card that is connected to the cable modem. You need to set a static IP for her second network card, and also for the network card in your computer as well. Whatever you do, never use the IP address 127.0.0.1. You probably need to enable IP forwarding on her computer as well.

For your computers to see each other on the Network Neighbourhood, enable NetBIOS.

	04-04-2003 21:21									#13
	Got spare money?

Osweld,

The easiest way to do it is to use a cable/DSL modem with a built-in switch. The dual NIC (probably the nForce2 chipset) is useful on a LAN, but if you need to connect more than one computer to broadband, it's more complicated than necessary.

	04-04-2003 21:23									#14
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Well, fiddling around with various settings has resulted in both our computers now recognizing the presense of each other, and accessing each other. But still, no internet on my computer.

I tried playing with ICS, but unfortunately her version of Windows is old enough that it won't work with my computer; this seems like it ought to be the Big Problem. I just don't know how to fix it. Would it work if I connected the modem to the hub, instead of her computer?

	04-04-2003 21:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Anyway, you need two network cards in your SO's computer, and you need to make sure that both are bound to TCP/IP. If your ISP uses a program to connect to the broadband service, it should only bind to the network card that is connected to the cable modem. You need to set a static IP for her second network card, and also for the network card in your computer as well. Whatever you do, never use the IP address 127.0.0.1. You probably need to enable IP forwarding on her computer as well.

Okay, I know she has two network cards; the rest was absolute Greek. Anyway you could dumb that down for me?

	04-04-2003 21:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Would it work if I connected the modem to the hub, instead of her computer?

That will be slightly better in the sense that one of you can use the broadband connection from either computer, but otherwise you need one of those switch/router combo thingies.

	04-04-2003 21:41									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Okay, I know she has two network cards; the rest was absolute Greek. Anyway you could dumb that down for me?

::scratches head::

Okay. All network cards need something called an IP address to be accessed on any network that uses TCP/IP, which is the protocol suite underlying the Internet. The network card that connects to the cable modem doesn't need you to give it an IP address, because it will be done automatically when you connect to the broadband.

The other two cards require these IP numbers, and the easiest way to do it is just give them one manually. This is called a static IP because it doesn't change. Anyway, IP numbers are in the form of a.b.c.d where a, b, c, and d can be anywhere in the range of 0-255. My suggestion is to give them a number in the range of 10.0.0.0 to 10.255.255.255.

"Binding" TCP/IP to your network card simply means make sure it recognises the network card and is configured to work with it. It should be pretty automatic in Windows and you can check the settings by right clicking Network Neighborhood and click on Properties. Same with "binding" the dialing program (if any) to one of the network cards. If it is bound to both delete the one that's connected to the hub. Assign IP to the card that's connected to the hub, and thus forms part of the LAN.

If you have more questions I'll try to answer them tomorrow, if Wraith or somebody else hasn't beat me to them.

	04-04-2003 21:52									#18
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Do the Ethernet cards need to use the same IP address?

	04-04-2003 22:00									#19
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If they are the same it won't work.

They need to be on the same subnet,

For example one computer could be 10.10.10.1 and the other 10.10.10.2

	04-04-2003 22:52									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Okay, did that, still not working. Getting a touch frustrated.

If I want to use ICS, as I understand it, the cable modem will have to go into my computer--the newer Windows can work with the older, but not vice versa. However, her computer is the one with two network cards; will it simply be a matter of taking one out of her computer and putting it into mine?


Simply connecting the two cards together, sans hub, led to complete loss of connection between the computers... curse my logical thinking.

	05-04-2003 00:59									#21
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If you can spare $60.00 this will solve all of your problems. I have the 8 port version and it works great and you don't need to know beans about networking.

http://www.bestbuy.com/ComputersPer...t=540&scat=1574

	05-04-2003 02:05									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It may come to that.

In the meantime, I've come up with a patchwork solution. Since I can access her computer from mine, and run programs on my computer that are located on her computer, I tried running the Tropico 2 Demo (which wasn't working on her computer). Lo and behold, success. So, I thought to myself, "if I can run that--on my computer, from hers--why shouldn't I be able to run the Internet Explorer the same way?

Yup, I'm pretty much a prisoner of logic. Needless to say, that didn't work. Please, don't anyone try to explain why it doesn't work--it's liable to make my head explode.

Anyway, I figured I can just download programs that I need onto her computer (ie, patches, med school stuff, etc), and then run it on mine. It'll do, until we get the network thing figured out.

	05-04-2003 02:27									#23
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If you truly were a Luddite you would be destroying technology and not asking advice how to make it work

Poser!

	05-04-2003 02:46									#24
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also the reason you could not connect the two computers without the hub is because you are using a "patch" cable and you need a "crossover" cable to do this.

	05-04-2003 06:23									#25
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--"would that be of any use?"

Yeah, it can do exactly what you want. You'll just have some configuration to get it to that state.

Really, though, the cable/DSL routers are really cheap. It's normally not going to be worth the effort. If it saves you a couple hours of messing with the programs, it'd be worth just buying one of them.

--"Would it work if I connected the modem to the hub, instead of her computer?"

Depends on your modem and your ISP. If what you're calling a modem is actually a DSL router, then this would solve the problem. If it's really a DSL modem (something of a contradiction in terms itself, but I won't get into that) then that won't do it. Your ISP will have to have assigned you two IP addresses, and most of them won't unless you're paying extra.

--"will it simply be a matter of taking one out of her computer and putting it into mine?"

Should be, yes. As long as the NIC is compatible with your new machine, which it should be as long as it's PCI and not ISA (the slot it fits in should be beige rather than black).

--"Simply connecting the two cards together, sans hub, led to complete loss of connection between the computers."

You'd need what is called a crossover cable to do that. To over simplify, each wire in the cable can only handle traffic in one direction. Switches and hubs are made to compensate for this by listening on a different wire than a PC does. Using the same cable to connect two PCs means they both listen on the same one and speak on the same one, so nothing gets through.

Wraith
"In the fight between you and the world, back the world."
-- Franz Kafka

	05-04-2003 09:36									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks for all the help... looks like it's probably router time.

EDIT: Just to clarify, so I don't end up in another nightmare, with a router all I'd do is plug both computers' Ethernet cards into the router, and that's that, yes? No ****ing around with software or drivers or configurations or IP addresses or anything else that makes my blood pressure spike?

	05-04-2003 09:50									#27
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--"with a router all I'd do is plug both computers' Ethernet cards into the router, and that's that, yes?"

Well, almost. There had to be a catch, right? In this case, it's pretty simple. You'll have to add your username and login to the router, instead of doing it on the computer. You'll also have to change her computer so that it gets its IP address automatically.

But that's it.

Wraith
"I'm an engineer, not a normal person."
-- Dilbert ("Dilbert")

	05-04-2003 09:58									#28
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All you do is plug the Cable/DSL modem into the WAN port of the router and connect the computers LAN cables to the LAN ports on the router, turn on the power and all will be well. Both computers will be assigned a TCP/IP address by the router (you will need the network software on the computers set to auto config address). The router will have the address assigned by your ISP and your computers will have address assigned by the router.

Works great we have 4 users online at once and only one TCP/IP address. Since most of the time the connection is idle, the only time it slows down is if someone is downloading a very large file. And even then the router "shares the bandwith" with all users.

Save your hair do it !

	05-04-2003 09:59									#29
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Only if the router has DHCP, and he'll need to set the computers to get their IP's from the router.

	05-04-2003 10:05									#30
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Wraith
Quote:

Well, almost. There had to be a catch, right? In this case, it's pretty simple. You'll have to add your username and login to the router, instead of doing it on the computer.

We did not have to do this with the Linksys BEFSR81 router we have. Does this have something to do with this router having DHCP built in?

EDIT: The router I sugested he get is the 4 port version of the one I have, it's only $10 more than the cheapest router he can get "off the shelf" in A2.

Last edited by Promethus on 05-04-2003 at 10:13