04-04-2003 22:50									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 The term economically sensible does not exist in the vacuum of space.

Not yet, but it will. Eventually we'll have to exploit the resources of the solar system.

	04-04-2003 23:04									#32
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

the UN has a resolution that states no nation can colonize a celestial body, the moon included.

the UN would have to sanction it, and they'd probably push for a multinational colony.

it, however, states nothing of private ownership. a private company COULD colonize the moon. ::hint hint:: you capitialist wh0res.

anyway, if natyions could claim the moon, we claimed it first

	04-04-2003 23:20									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the UN has a resolution that states no nation can colonize a celestial body, the moon included.

Right, and we've all seen how well nations listen to the UN haven't we?

The internationalization of space has already begun. There's at least 5 distinct space programs now that I know of, with minimal cooperation between them. And I believe Australia is getting it's feet wet in that direction as well, IIRC.

	04-04-2003 23:27									#34
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by el freako The smartest nations will therefore bypass the moon entirely and go for a near-earth asteroid.

The Moon's a lot closer and it contains frozen water, making it much more economical to establish some sort of permanent resource venture there.

	04-04-2003 23:28									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

possesion is 9/10th of the law ??? Or maybe thats just a British colonial law ??? sounds fair to me.

	04-04-2003 23:47									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: the UN has a resolution that states no nation can colonize a celestial body, the moon included.

A law that should be abolished IMO.

	05-04-2003 01:37									#37
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, NO! A UN resolution!

	05-04-2003 03:51									#38
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

it is possible that we will find ways to mine the ridiculous amts of valuable materials contained in asteroids in outter space.

at which pt economics will be a no brainer.

	05-04-2003 04:42									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Willem The Moon's a lot closer and it contains frozen water, making it much more economical to establish some sort of permanent resource venture there.

The moon contains frozen water? That's news to me. Are you sure?

I can see it now... in 2045... "Full Moon Spring Water -- water from the moon" Only a grand a bottle.

	05-04-2003 05:19									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

the UN saying u can't claim nething in space is like a beggar saying no1 can fly on airplanes.

even if they dont claim it as their own they will claim use of it. or some other such vague interpretation.

	05-04-2003 09:55									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the UN has a resolution that states no nation can colonize a celestial body, the moon included.

No. No nation is allowed to claim extraterrestrial territories as its own, but scientific research colonies are definitedly allowed.

	05-04-2003 10:57									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This is good news. I know that India and China hate each other so that may fuel the space rivalry even more. And wouldn't it be nice if they both cooled things a bit as far as their military rivalry goes.

The other nice thing now is that there are lots of potential players that could also be inspired to think a bit more about space exploration: NASA, ESA, Russia, Japan... could even be others for all I know.

	05-04-2003 11:30									#43
	Re: A new space race? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Willem we've ignored the Moon far to long IMO.

The moon has outlived its usefulness. I'd be open to shipping it to Venus.

	05-04-2003 12:04									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sava The moon contains frozen water? That's news to me. Are you sure? I can see it now... in 2045... "Full Moon Spring Water -- water from the moon" Only a grand a bottle.

Yes, they discovered that there's a fair amount of it a couple of years ago. It's intermingled with the soil in certain areas, it's not like there's big slabs like the Antartic. The soil would have to be mined in order to extract it.

	05-04-2003 12:11									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: No. No nation is allowed to claim extraterrestrial territories as its own, but scientific research colonies are definitedly allowed.

snore. I was talking mining for Helium-3.
the prototype reactor is ready, you know.

	05-04-2003 13:00									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No. No nation is allowed to claim extraterrestrial territories as its own, but scientific research colonies are definitedly allowed.

This is true. But the US should claim the moon as our own anyway

	05-04-2003 20:24									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kramerman This is true. But the US should claim the moon as our own anyway

Well then, maybe you better be prepared to go up there someday and evict someone. Short of a full scale terrestial war with China, if they decide to stake a claim in the future, you won't have much to say about it.

	05-04-2003 20:27									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No. No nation is allowed to claim extraterrestrial territories as its own, but scientific research colonies are definitedly allowed.

That has a loophole a mile wide though. A base may start out as a research colony, but what's to prevent it from expanding into a full blown settlement? And who would know the difference really?

	05-04-2003 20:27									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

while no1 plans ongoing to the moon netime soon. why do u assume china would beat us to the moon?

ie, be the first w/ colonies on the moon.

	05-04-2003 20:37									#50
	Suffering from ads?

I hope I'm alive for the first manned Mars mission. I watched the first footstep on the moon in both black and white. Another planet now, that's really incredible. Terraform! Not enough water though. We'll have to drag ice asteroids in, or some wild engineering achievement. It will take a great generation first of all.

	05-04-2003 20:45									#51
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by yavoon while no1 plans ongoing to the moon netime soon. why do u assume china would beat us to the moon? ie, be the first w/ colonies on the moon.

They're doing all this partly for prestige and attention within the international community. And since so many things have been done already in space; if they do send a man into orbit this fall most people probably won't even notice, they're going to have to look into areas that no one has attempted before. So the logical thing for them to try IMO would be a moon colony.

That's not say that the US might not do it first if they make the effort, but I see absolutely no desire by them to do so at the moment. They've almost completely ignored the Moon for 30 years now.

	05-04-2003 20:53									#52
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Lancer Not enough water though.

That's still debatable by the sounds of it. I read someone's estimate recently and he mentioned that if the current ice was melted suddenly, there would be enough to cover the entire planet until it was ankle deep. We just don't know for sure yet how much is there, it could be much more prevalent that we realize.

And I watched the moon landing as well, it was pretty amazing for me at the time. I was pretty much glued to that B&W TV set at my sister's place for awhile.

	05-04-2003 21:12									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It would settle into tiny oceans though. Not enough for evaporation to bring enough rain. The Earth is 3/4 water, yes? ...and look at the huge dry places we have.

Seems to make sense to me though it's all just speculation, I don't know such stuff. They can't make it rain in the desert here though...

	05-04-2003 21:28									#54
	Increase the size of your Attachments

If we'd smothen the face of the earth into a ball, it would be covered by 2km deep ocean.

If we'd smother the face of mars into a ball it would be covered by a 200 meter deep ocean.

that's what I heard, anyway.

	05-04-2003 21:33									#55
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Lancer It would settle into tiny oceans though. Not enough for evaporation to bring enough rain. The Earth is 3/4 water, yes? ...and look at the huge dry places we have. Seems to make sense to me though it's all just speculation, I don't know such stuff. They can't make it rain in the desert here though...

I think rain will be a bit much to ask for on Mars, it's always going to be cold no matter what we do. Unless we eventually develop the technology to move the entire planet closer to the sun. Any settlements, including agricultural facilities, will have to be enclosed, and it sounds like there's plenty of water for that.

BTW, our deserts aren't dry because of lack of water, it has more to do with wind patterns etc.

	06-04-2003 02:39									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I thought it was Mars's extremely thin atmosphere that was to blame for its low temperature, adn not necissarily its distance form the sun, tho that is a major factor... I read somewhere that in valleys along the equatorial belt it can get up to 60 degrees F when the Sun is high in the sky. Of course, at night its temperatures plunge to colder than Antartica...

	06-04-2003 04:17									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The main problem with Mars is weak gravity. A lot of the volatile gases have likely already be lost into space. Hence the thin atmosphere.

As an aside, I was in elementary school at the time of the moon landing. Everyone was asked to guess when the first manned Mars mission would take place. Most of the guesses ranged between ten and thirty years.

	06-04-2003 09:01									#58
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Willem That has a loophole a mile wide though. A base may start out as a research colony, but what's to prevent it from expanding into a full blown settlement? And who would know the difference really?

That's true. Though it would be quite problematic to maintain anything big on the Moon, lots of problems without a protective atmosphere. The whole colony must be self-contained to reduce the need for resupply.

Mars and Venus are better choices for any long term human settlements.

	06-04-2003 19:09									#59
	Tired of ads?

I don't worry too much about nations claiming celestial territory in defiance of international acceptability. Antarctica is probably more replete with resources and easier to exploit. No-one has attempted to enforce their flag-planted claims on it or its resources as far as I am aware.

	07-04-2003 01:14									#60
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's true. Though it would be quite problematic to maintain anything big on the Moon, lots of problems without a protective atmosphere. The whole colony must be self-contained to reduce the need for resupply. Mars and Venus are better choices for any long term human settlements.

Venus, are you joking? I think it's about 800 C on the surface, with a corrosive atmosphere. We're a long ways from being able to colonize there, if ever.

As for the moon, since there's water ice there already, it wouldn't require that much to establish a self sufficient colony. A few lessons in biodome technology and that's about it. And those lessons would set the stage for a settlement on Mars as well.