04-04-2003 20:47									#1
	A new space race? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It looks to me like India and China are in a real rush to beat each other into space. I wonder if either of them will eventually send another man to the moon, the same way it happened between the Americans and the Soviets. It would be nice to see frankly, we've ignored the Moon far to long IMO.

India's space aspirations

	04-04-2003 20:48									#2
	Got spare money?

Yes. Goodness knows what amazing occurances may have taken place in our 31 year absence.

	04-04-2003 20:52									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

obviously wombat if we have aspirations of deeper space travel the moon is very useful, not only as possible staging points, but also as a possible fuel source. and even more immediately as a sort of baby step.

so to get all uppity cuz u think the rocks still look the same really short sighted

	04-04-2003 20:54									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

and yet so typical.

	04-04-2003 21:00									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah, I agree, its a good place for all those reasons. But then what you mean is we've ignored the possibilities of manned voyages in deep-space for too long. Technology probably isn't up to dealing with a successful moon colony yet (it might survive, but noone would risk it), and the political and economic climates of the west are completely wrong for further space exploration. We simply won't have a second space-revolution within the near future.
The point of my previous post was to point out in a non-uppity way that 31 years in terms of both the moon and our technological advances is not very much. There isn't a lot we can do now that could have done (and probably did) then. Give it time 'til our tech can do something useful on the moon, then go back. Hopefully by space elevator.

What's short sighted is assuming the moon is a good place to be now simply because its there and we can.

	04-04-2003 21:03									#6
	Tired of ads?

Here's another article with some background info. Yavoon is right, the Moon could provide a very important staging area for travel throughout the solar system. There's some info on that at the bottom of the story.

The Legacy of Apollo

I've also read that the Moon can be a valuable source of Helium 3, an isotope that's been useful for nuclear fusion research, but which is very rare on Earth.

	04-04-2003 21:12									#7
	Support Apolyton

It would be good to see the Indians or Chinese do what America was unable to do: establish a permanent moonbase.

(Yes, America wasn't technologically unable to do that, but it was "unable" nevertheless)

The ISS is a dead-end in space. A moonbase has the potential to expand itself without having to lift every gram of construction material from Earth. And, eventually, to build more spacecraft from lunar materials.

And, yes, it's debatable whether we yet have the ability to make a fully self-sustaining artificial ecosystem. But the Moon is close enough for emergency resupply or evacuation, unlike Mars. Mars is much more hospitable, but everything HAS to work right or you're dead.

	04-04-2003 21:14									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat What's short sighted is assuming the moon is a good place to be now simply because its there and we can.

The point isn't whether we can, we already know that, but whether India and China can. A space race between the two of them could alter their societies dramatically, allowing them to make some great leaps in many other areas, and also draw in more foreign investment. Plus it would no doubt get the Americans thinking about it again, since they probably wouldn't like the idea of China perhaps beating them to the punch sometime down the road in setting up a colony. A successful lunar landing by either of them would probably trigger a race to build the first colony in fact.

	04-04-2003 21:19									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless And, yes, it's debatable whether we yet have the ability to make a fully self-sustaining artificial ecosystem.

But the only way to know that for sure would be to set one up and see what happens. The research possibilities in that area alone would be invaluable for future plans of a Mars journey.

	04-04-2003 21:20									#10
	Support Apolyton

i think the idea of a moonbase built with 'made in china' components is the best thing on this thread

	04-04-2003 21:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i think the idea of a moonbase built with 'made in china' components is the best thing on this thread

I agree, I'm getting rather burned out of all the doom and gloom stories in the news these day; it's kind of refreshing seeing something positive and constructive for a change.

	04-04-2003 21:28									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: It looks to me like India and China are in a real rush to beat each other into space

Neh.

China is going to send a manned capsule to orbit this year while India plans some very cheap moon satellite for 2008. Hardly a competition.

	04-04-2003 21:35									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'd rather see a co-operative effort for a moonbase between the US, Europe, China and India...

	04-04-2003 21:37									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not Russia?

	04-04-2003 21:38									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: It looks to me like India and China are in a real rush to beat each other into space Neh. China is going to send a manned capsule to orbit this year while India plans some very cheap moon satellite for 2008. Hardly a competition.

You should follow the links a bit more:

More info

Just because they're starting slowly doesn't mean it won't escalate. You have to look at it from the perspective of thier societies, not compare it to what the Americans and Russians are capable of. And even that race started out slowly. It wasn't until the Soviet's first manned mission that things really began to heat up.

	04-04-2003 21:40									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

cooperative blah blah blah is insanely inefficient. the real strides in space will be made when there is something worth competing for again.

	04-04-2003 21:48									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I was talking about competition between China and India, not comparing them to the US/SU.

	04-04-2003 21:51									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by yavoon cooperative blah blah blah is insanely inefficient. the real strides in space will be made when there is something worth competing for again.

I don't see a cooperative venture for a moonbase as plausible either. Any development there will follow the same geopolitical models that we have here on Earth, with different countries laying claims to various areas in order to control the resources that will be found in them.

	04-04-2003 22:04									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Eli I was talking about competition between China and India, not comparing them to the US/SU.

Even still, just because their efforts now might seem mediocre, that's bound to change as each of them try to beat the other to the punch. If China sends a man into orbit this fall, as they say they're going to do, you can bet that India probably would try to follow close behind, gearing up their space program in the process. Then both of them will try to take it one step further in order to outdo the other. I think this could get interesting in a few years time.

	04-04-2003 22:08									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: we've ignored the Moon far to long

I think it's still too early for colonizing space. Wait another 50 years, perhaps even 100 and we'll (need to) do it.

	04-04-2003 22:09									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The smartest nations will therefore bypass the moon entirely and go for a near-earth asteroid.

	04-04-2003 22:23									#22
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DaShi Not Russia?

Sure, but they can't afford to be equal partners, and we don't need to be bailing them out again.

	04-04-2003 22:24									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

They can be consultants.

	04-04-2003 22:25									#24
	Remove this text

check all the units are the same, that kind of thing

	04-04-2003 22:31									#25
	Remove this text

quote: The ISS is a dead-end in space. A moonbase has the potential to expand itself without having to lift every gram of construction material from Earth. And, eventually, to build more spacecraft from lunar materials. And, yes, it's debatable whether we yet have the ability to make a fully self-sustaining artificial ecosystem. But the Moon is close enough for emergency resupply or evacuation, unlike Mars. Mars is much more hospitable, but everything HAS to work right or you're dead.

ISS a dead end? Moon is a stepping stone to the solar system but whats our stepping stone to the moon. Emergency resupply and evacuation will be a hell of alot easier with a functional space station. A moonbase might have the potential to expand but until you get that potential you'll have to lift a hell of alot of bits and bobs from the Earth's surface. It would be more efficient if you had a staging and assembly station in LEO before trying ANY ambitious space projects.

	04-04-2003 22:36									#26
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by badman I think it's still too early for colonizing space. Wait another 50 years, perhaps even 100 and we'll (need to) do it.

There's no reason why we can't start taking a few steps now though. We could learn alot just by setting up a very small biological station, with just a few researchers at a time. Or conducting experiments on various mining techniques. There's all sorts of things that can be done before establishing an outright colony. There's already alot of data on the effects of living, working and growing things in zero-gravity, I think we need to start thinking about the next step. And having India or China land a man on the moon might just give the rest of the world the incentive to start looking at the possibilities.

	04-04-2003 22:38									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think we need a space elevator before any serious, economically sensible attempt at colonising ET bodies can be made.

	04-04-2003 22:42									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The term economically sensible does not exist in the vacuum of space.

	04-04-2003 22:48									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat I think we need a space elevator before any serious, economically sensible attempt at colonising ET bodies can be made.

A space plane would be much more cost effective. A space elevator would require a huge investment, and there's still alot of questions regarding the safety of something like that. Just imagine the kind of damage that would occur if thousands and thousands of tons of cables suddenly plunged to the Earth.

And colonies don't necessarily have to require a great deal of continued support if we can establish some manufacturing processes that will allow them to become self-sufficient quickly. The resources are all there, we just have to figure out how to exploit them. Some sort of research station could teach us alot along those lines.

	04-04-2003 22:49									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You shouldn't discount India so easily. when it comes to space technology and high end technology, they are suprisingly advanced.

Obviously having several hundred million on the bread line, isn't going to help .. but that didn't stop Russia did it .

I can see China making the first moves in this race, but India will not be far behind.