09-04-2003 01:55									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If this is a second front or invasion...the Demogypticans will again rush troops up to fight. If this is so...we must attack. We simply cannot wait for them to develop Chivalry. If they do, they will use it against us. We are a threat, but they are fools if they don't fear the Warmongers just as much. If we get the Warmongers into this against the Arabs...we'll have this war in the bag. The Arabs will be forced to split theirs troops for a defensive war, and caught between two fronts, they will collapse.

Cardinal Calamari

	09-04-2003 02:10									#32
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by astrologix Togas, I agree, but we can't continue our military development if our two military factories, Madrid and Zaragoza, are ordered to build Marketplaces, already or very soon. We must find another cities for that, maybe Pamplona could build a more profitable marketplace after the completion of its current settler in queue.

I don't mind to change production in Zaragoza from market place to swordsmen, but I thought that a marketplace would benefit us pretty well now: if we want to aquire techs by trade it serves us as well as when we aquire techs by research.

Aidun Cian the younger

	09-04-2003 03:56									#33
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

We need to assume that this is the ruse that Vox is employing right now. We should maintain that stance unless a screen shot from GoW shows Vox forces in large number's. It may well be Vox's plan to send a small force, including a settler, to make it look to GS that it is what they are doing. The city could be founded, and then only one unit left there while the rest are shipped to GS for the express purpose of taking their land and cities.

If this is a part of Vox's plan, to send a Settling force to the North/West of Bob, then we are indeed in a good position to attack ND. I believe ND is being kept out of this 'ruse loop' that Vox and GoW and ourselves are in.

If it is not a ruse; then we have an different situation on our hands. It is possible, though not likely, that Vox, GS and ND are teaming up to take out GoW and RP. Or it could be simpler in that Vox and ND are teaming to take out GoW.

We need some definitive screen shots from GoW of Vox's movement; I still believe that GoW is our natural ally and won't be attacking us or alligning against us with anyone, it's just not in their best interest to do so. until we can get some evidence, one way or the other, we should immediately amass offisive troops to our North and shore up the defense to our Eastern shores.

	09-04-2003 05:51									#34
	Inflate your Upload Space

There are SO many different ideas here it's impossible to separate fact from opinion.

I do agree that, until there is physical evidence of Vox invading we do not react against them (or for them), but only protest their announcement. If they invade, we will need to demand they withdraw, backing up our Bob neighbours in words ALONE. If they end up attacking GS, then we aid them, hopefully with a coalition of Bobians as well. Otherwise we must be prepared to attack one of our neighbours - GoW or ND, soon. I would favour attacking GoW, as their tactics have been somewhat questionable at times and they are clearly mavericks.

The time is certainly near for war, and we must be ready to change our target based on whichever of these eventualities actually occurs.

	09-04-2003 07:03									#35
	Got spare money?

Senor Where Its At,

It is, I suspect, rather impossible for us to really get a hold of the Warmongers at present without taking our army beyond Demogyptica and Spain. If we are to really make any clear campaign at all in response to the Voxians, it must be to take out a good chunk of Demogyptica...so much, in fact, that a cultural revolution is impossible. In fact, if we can do so, I think we should conquer them all...every last man of them.

Cardinal Calamari

	09-04-2003 09:02									#36
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by GodKing Should be interesting. I would hesitate to side with either one. Lets be the US around WW1 - lets not get involved unless someone forces us to.

As long a s GS doesn't name a galley the "Lustatainia"(sp)...

E_T

	09-04-2003 09:03									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

The Anti-Vox sentiments are running high in the public PTWDG forum!

I do notice that one particular member of GS always seems to support Vox's migration Westward to our continent, nbarclay.(IIRC) I guess it is in GS's interest to have Vox expand West rather than South. :duh:

It could be GS's attempt to make Vox think that Vox has fooled GS into believing that they are indeed heading West for Bob. While GS isn't being played for the fool and are 'onto' the ruse or at least aware that it may likely be one; and are creating their own 'counter-ruse' by showing support for Vox's Westward expansion!

One thing is sure; there's enough speculation material to keep a conspiracy theorist busy for a month of Sundays!

	09-04-2003 10:15									#38
	Got spare money?

Now Vox declares war on GS (or GS attacked them preemptively) any definite info on what ND is going to do?

	09-04-2003 10:21									#39
	Tired of ads?

If Vox continues with it's plan, as reported by BH that they will, then ND will likely send troops North to meet them since they claim that land as their's. If this happens, it is looking good for us. WE should paln for an invasion of ND on turn 101 (when the current agreement ends.) We may want to public support Vox against GS, in order to allay suspicions, but keep the stance that we are opposed to them settling North. In other words: We support Vox on their home continet but not on Bob. (at least publically)

	09-04-2003 15:17									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Togas If this IS hype, they're doing a good job of it and we WILL aid Vox in toppling Gathering Storm. I ask OliverFA to post one of his excellent score graphs to show you the evidence ... Gathering Storm has been growing at a fierce rate, and if Vox isn't the one to check their growth, no one will. Furthermore, their capital is just to the east of Madrid, a short boat trip away. Once Vox is contained, if they choose to invade this continent, we will be the ones who be destroyed.

The graphs are from this weekend, but they will do. I will try to update the analysis this afternoon due the importance of the case.

The first one is this weekend analysis of the last 25 and 50 turns, respectively. The third one is from the world map at Togas' page.

This shows that Togas is right in his assumptions. Gathering Storm has grown (and it's growing )at the same pace than ND, Lego and ourselves. The difference with GS is that they don't seem to have a neighbour powerful enough to counterbalance them. Lego is somewhat limited by the borders of their own continent, ND and ourselves act as a counterbalances for each other, but for GS only Vox stands. If you look at the world map of what we know about Vox/GS continent the odds are that GS will beat Vox and get the full continent. That would make them really powerful. That's why we should do as much as we can to help Vox if their war against GS. Not because we don't like or hate GS, or because we are Vox's friends. We must do that just to prevent GS from becoming too powerful.

The bad thing about this is that with ND on the north we must not send our defensive troops, but King Togas is right that we must figure as much ways as possible to help Vox without compromising Spain's security.

	09-04-2003 15:48									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm sure you might already have seen this, but here is an important declaration of BetaHound at the public forum:

quote: First it was trade pact pressures. Then a road being built towards us - but for what purpose? And then most recently - the final straw - GS observer warriors moving off of their negotiated positions to cut key road links within Vox. A prelude to invasion?

This reminds me when E_T discovered that Vox had no iron. It seems that Vox is saying the truth, at least in that issue. Are they inserting little pieces of truth to make their speech more credible, or are they completely honest?

	09-04-2003 16:02									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Now that Vox has committed to war with GS; what if GoW takes advantage of Vox by sending troops to attack Vox while they have amassed troops to the South? Kind of scary. I'm glad Togas has sent a PM to both ND and GoW letting them know the reasons we should support Vox in this war; hopefully, if GoW had any other intentions, they will change their mind based on the fact that GS cannot be allowed to grow unfettered by any Nation. They would be a danger to all.

Also, Vox is continuing it's 'ruse' of saying they still intend to settle on Bob's North/West region. This may lead some of ND's troops in that direction since they are the ones who most ardently claim that that is their territory. Leaving an oportunity for us to come in through the 'back door'!

We have 10 turns to prepare; I say all builds, besides the harbor now under construction, should be changed to military units. We should cross ND's border with 12 swordsmen and 6 spearmen and a couple of Horsemen on turn 101; headed right for Marlowa and then to their Capitol.

The only question is should we finish them, if given the chance or should we make them vassal's to our empire?

	11-04-2003 02:16									#43
	Remove this text

News from the front

GF has sent a note to Togas with this picture:

quote: Originally posted by Togas GF says that it is the SECOND stack of Immortals that have gone past him, but it is possible that it is the only one, given the position of the single Immortal on the mountaintop that killed Grog ... and given that Vox has only done 1 turn of warfare. this certainly isn't "26 units" it's only 12 immortals but there could be more ... and most likely are more

	11-04-2003 02:40									#44
	Got spare money?

Gone past him... What do you mean? Do we know more about where they are heading? 12 is a little too less, I guess there will be more enroute soon...

	11-04-2003 02:47									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The second stack that they have seen from their galley, plaguerat.

	11-04-2003 03:05									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A quick note from the 750BC save:

GS - 175
ND -158
GoW - 136
RP - 149
Vox - 92
Lego -155

GS is by far the team with the most score!!!!!

	11-04-2003 03:12									#47
	Put an end to popups!

The 3 warriors are probably going to be upgraded to Immortals; I guess they have a Barracks in Dissidentville.

So that 12 Immortals in the stack plus 1 on the mountain plus the 3 Warriors to become Immortals for a total of 16 Immortals and 2 Spearmen. There's a chance that they are moving two seperate stacks; so there could be more, or there could be some in Dissidentville already.

Regardless of whether it's '26' or '18', it's still a very large force for GS to rekon with!

	11-04-2003 03:36									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ok.. I see you meant the second stack who passed the GoW boat, who are scouting the shoreline. It's very difficult too see anything on this map, but I think we should take notice of their movement strategies...

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 11-04-2003 at 03:43

	11-04-2003 04:01									#49
	Full PM-box? Change here!

GoW should know without question whether there is a second stack or not, because the unit names are very unique, and they would be able to tell the difference between stacks, or if they are simply seeing the same stack again, further down the road.

	12-04-2003 20:33									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Gathering Storm is the enemy without any question.

They have 202 score points at the 730BC save. 49 more than Lego, 52 more than ND and 53 more than RP. Their size is more than twice Vox's size. All the remaining nations should make an embargo against them. The only problem is to make GoW understand this...

	13-04-2003 05:41									#51
	Foreign policies for a new Spannish century Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I post this thread as to ask to you What do you think Spain should do regarding this Vox business? Should we side with Vox?Or with GS?
If we side with Vox, Should we aid to wich extent? Should we aid with trades and embargo against GS (What we are doing right now) , or should we send direct aid?
In 6 turns we get a galley, and we have 7 swordsman.
Shipping 3 of them to there might not only help change the outcome, but also increse relationship with Vox. Maybe grab some gold or workers, or in the worst of situations some training (6 turns from now GS will probably be weakened a lot). Also, we don´t need to aim at cities and such hard battles. We may only pillage, capture workers, kill undefended units, such a war of opportunity. Also, as GS seems to be very programated team, this might unbalance their planning enough to defeat them (look at their posts in their main forums and you will see they count us at their side).
I´d like to know your opinion on who is VOx´s ally.
Today on a chat with Eli he declared we are not their greatest ally, so we can do some guessing on who is. Ipd place my bet on GoW, considering their galleys up there.

	13-04-2003 05:44									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Also, we need to decide if it is worth accepting this deal with Vox for enginering, or if we believe they will all die before they pay us the tech.

	13-04-2003 08:19									#53
	Plans for the delivery of a galley at Estonia, possibly with the SEf Inflate your Upload Space

Hello friends,
I was talking to Togas about the possibility of sending our first galley with an expeditionary corps inside (Spannish Expeditionary Force) to Estonia to support Vox, killing stray units and capturing workers and such.
I have drawn a map with the possible routes and I am posting it here. (it will be here as soon as oliver can upload it)
The galley will be ready in 6 turns in barcelona. The Red spot marks the point our galley will be at 2 turns after leaving the docks. Then,
the light blue line marks a possible route, still to be verified by the galley ---> if we find out that it is viable, then the ETA at Estonia is of 3 turns after leaving barcelona (9 turns from now).
the light green lines mark safe routes that are 100% sure. The first one would have an ETA of 4 turns to arrive at Estonia´s shores (10 turns from now).
The second light green one is the longest one, that circumvents the continent and it would take an incomensurable amount of time to arrive at conflict zone.
the yellow lines are risk crossing zones, and in them we´d have to count on luck not to sink.
the light green spot marks a probable coast, and the dark green spot marks a probable land.

About the composition of the SEF, I suggest 2 swordsman, for a good strenght to deal with most cases of opportunity that may appear. Also, they have defense of 2, wich is enough to resist those war chariots. They would be training in there, maybe pillaging improvements, and also getting fleeing workers and such. I think it is worth the try.
Togas sugested a force of 2 horses for more mobility there, but Estonia seems too much rocky and full of jungles for our horsemen to ride efectively.

	13-04-2003 09:06									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I think Estonia is much too far away for us to worry about now. What would sending people all the way across the ocean do for us, except maybe provoke the Arabs to attack us in indignation? Mind you, they will act all indignant, even though the real reason will be because they see a chance to strike us while we are weaker. I support Vox because they are the smaller party, but think it is foolish to do anything about it except munch my favourite brand of squid when I hear the town crier with the latest war news.

Those who have the urge to stick things in things far away should notice the nearer things to stick things in closer to home; things which when things are stuck in have the result of strengthening the realm by producing all-new things a matter of months later.

I refer of course, to the plow

Last edited by pikesfan on 13-04-2003 at 09:11

	13-04-2003 14:43									#55
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I wouldn't really want to send any units to Estonia right now. We may have something brewing between GoW and ND; as ND has said they are growing wary of GoW. even if they are in league with GoW (especially if they are) we need to keep troops at home. If we must send a unit, for show of support, send one built at Madrid, perhaps a horseman or a swordsman, but no more, IMO.

	13-04-2003 15:00									#56
	Support Apolyton

I am against sendig troops for now. After our galley will be build up, we will try to discover a short path towards the GS continent. In the meanwhile, the war between Vox and GS will give us the first results, I hope in favour of Vox.

	13-04-2003 18:33									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How far is Estonia?

NW has made a map trying to figure how close they are from us:

	13-04-2003 18:34									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I agree that sending troops for now is a bit risky, but I also agree that the new galley should no doubt try to reach Estonia and see how far they are from us.

	13-04-2003 19:22									#59
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

2 swordsmen won´t make the difference. Also, we could obtain very nice results form such, and show strenght and participativeness. And, if we state very clearly that we sent troops to Estonia other nations will think we have an enormous amount of troops (reinforced by the fact that we look stronger than all our possible enemies in the Military advisor screen). And, If my theory proves to be right, GoW Is sending soldiers to Estonia(maybe when GS gets weaker and Voxian troops approach enemy territory (remember they ahve 2 galleys in there, a bit too much for scouting, and Vox said they have another ally stronger than us that is giving more direct suport).
Besides, in my humble opinion, it is about time we start to take actions to enforce our view of the world in this game.
Anyway, I will be working on a defensive anti-ansar line as soon as my computer gets fixed.

Please, I ask of you not to close your eyes to possibilities of showing power and of obtaining gain; and remember that when we get to them (in my preview it will be around 9 to 10 turns from now) Vox will already have their main force in enemy territory, and our landing will break the GSians defensive line (they are not expecting us there).
Nuclearis Winterius the III

	13-04-2003 19:23									#60
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Spanish military has two uses: 1) To Defend the Spanish Homeland; and 2) To Increase the Spanish empire.

We are a noble civ, and have done what we can in the world to promote peace and good relations - that is as far as we should go. Further meddling in others' affairs will only distract us from what we should be doing...

With the example of a real war starting, and the UU's of the Chinese and Arabs due shortly, our complete focus should be on A) preparing to defend Spain from attack, and B) settling the rest of southern Spain.