07-04-2003 01:10									#1
	Vox's Coming War Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This Thread must remain ABSOLUTELY secret. Do not talk to anyone outside our team about this!

I had a meeting with Betahound & Eli today about their recent build-up. We talked hypothetically about different possibilities of what would happen if they went to war with either "bob civs" or GS. Here is the result of that discussion:

Legoland was cleared. They are not attacking them. We can safely sign a MPP with Legoland.

I gave them the details of our Bob Pact and explained that we could remain neutral due to our Non-Agg with Vox. They didn't talk much about this possibility, most of the discussion was about :

If they went to war with GS:

They requested that we not buy anything from GS, and requested that we make sales ASAP with GS ... so long as it's not war tech.

They want to pre-sell us Engineering for 120 at the start of war, 120 10 turns later. This will allow them to upgrade more immortals. They would give us Engineering once they got it.

I told them how GS will soon have Feudalism. They understood the window of opportunity to attack is shrinking. If war happens, it will be VERY soon.

They will sell us or give us their WM after the war is over so that we may see the GS lands to our east.

They understand that GS has a very powerful economy, and there is some reluctance to attack them. (basically, they need a little outside support).

They want us to "pay no attention" to what goes on in the PTW public forum as they are going to likely claim to reinvade Bob. Asked us to continue our pro-Bob stance in public.

If they do this attack, it is in our best interest to get other nations (GoW & ND) to also give $$$ to Vox to help their war effort vs GS. If war starts we should try to get covert international support to give them funds to topple the GS regime.

Please post your thoughts and comments. It is possible that they will invade Bob, but the majority of the conversation was on GS.

--Togas

	07-04-2003 01:13									#2
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Note: We NEED to get GoW to give us cash for Monarchy. We could use that cash to pre-buy Engineering from Vox (possibly throw in Monarchy to lower price), thereby giving Vox the cash they need to upgrade immortals.

--Togas

	07-04-2003 02:10									#3
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There is no much choice for Vox. They need to go to war with anyone to catch with the other civs. I'd willing to bet for an ale and squid at the tavern agains anyone who thinks they are not going to war (some easy money!).

We are going to have war very soon, and they can only be GoW or GS. If it is GS we would do good in supporting Vox in all those ways because that would strengthen a weak opponent and make ans strong one weaker.

	07-04-2003 03:56									#4
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We should indeed give support to the opposite party of whom ND gives support... Just to gain a "casus belli" against them, and perhaps even we'll make an ally against those heretics.

Right, but we have to look deeper into the bigger political picture before we can support any sides in a conflict. Your Majesty might know a bit more about this big picture, can you tell us some please?

- Don Alvarez de Plaguates.

	07-04-2003 04:13									#5
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I agree that GoW will attack GS soon. They have no choice. They are the only civ that is boxed in at this point in the game. Now it's clear why they attempted to settle on Bob. We would probably do the same thing in their shoes. Regarding support for Vox, I like the idea. But we have to be very careful. I ND sides with GS and finds out that we are helping Vox, it could start a war here, possible before we want to (that is, if we want to attack ND in the short term).

	07-04-2003 05:28									#6
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I´d Place my bets on a war with GS. Almost impossible for tehm to fight the economically-stronger/military-stronger/sea-protected civs of BoB.

	07-04-2003 07:45									#7
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I agree. It is war with the Egyptians. And I say, support the bloody mad Persians, just this once. Also, if the Arabs support them, and fight us for it...all the better. Let's get this bloody thing finished before they get their Ansars.

May God bless us in our endeavors.

Amen.

Cardinal Calamari

	07-04-2003 23:18									#8
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I had a short conversation with Ghengis Farb about Vox. I wanted to feel him out about the possibilities, and speak hypothetically about what they would do if Vox invaded Terra Nostra again. GF didn't seem too concerned about that possibility, he believes they are going after GS. He implied that he has had several conversations with Vox about it, and also implied that GoW would help Vox in their war.

He stated that GS has a monopoly of furs and incense on their half of the continent. He'd like to get a piece of those.

He believes that GS's iron can be cut, thus keeping them from getting Pikemen and Med. Inf. He implied that Vox and GoW were "searching" the edges of the continent to find the iron resource so it could be cut.

He said that GoW was saving up cash to buy Feudalism from GS. I told him that if war broke out, he won't want to go through with that purchase. I tried to find out from him who else was researching Feudal but he didn't say (or didn't know).

He invited us to participate in the war. We have no ships, but we could have some soon. The idea is one that I will consider. Sending 4 swordsmen behind the lines could cause some serious damage and turn the tide of the war to Vox.

--Togas

	08-04-2003 00:18									#9
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Vox and GoW must be made to understand that there are signals which GS could detect that will devalue or destroy the surprise element they need for a successful invasion.

Some cannot be helped. We have to go on under the assumption that GS has monitored their military advisor and now knows of the blitz upgrade that Vox recently initiated. They may also be aware of the fact that they are being probed by Gow and Vox ships.

Anything that can be done to limit the damage of such overtly aggressive actions should be done, and they need to understand that numero uno is to not cut off GS diplomatically. They need to maintain the facade of friendly relations, downplay any anxieties that GS may express to them, and get GS to let their guard down, and we will need to do so as well if we intend to participate in the hostilities.

	08-04-2003 01:00									#10
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Currently we don't have enough forces to go to invade GS.

We MUST keep our swordmen force ready to attack ND if needed. And Madrid must continue to produce ground units.

But once Barcelona finishes its Harbor we could start producing Galleys instead of a settler in that city. It would allow us to change our mind if it becomes necessary.

	08-04-2003 01:26									#11
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Should be interesting. I would hesitate to side with either one. Lets be the US around WW1 - lets not get involved unless someone forces us to.

	08-04-2003 02:30									#12
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Our defense is the top priority. No question about that.

However there are several small things we can do (such as a trade embargo and so) to help Vox. We have nothing against GS other than it is a rival civ and that it would serve our interest to weaken GS and strenghten Vox.

Later when our military is big enough to send some of them without risk we could send some military help, but now the ND menace is much more important.

	08-04-2003 03:09									#13
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4 swords is a bit much. I would put the limit at two. I agree that are military must be focused at ND.

	08-04-2003 04:01									#14
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Gathering Storm has reached their apex. They are now a Republic and their commerce rates in their compact, ultra-efficient nation dwarf the rest of us. Given time and financing they will not just lead the world, they will surpass the world by leaps and bounds. And given such superiority they will surly strike out in ships from their continent and capture valuable luxuries to strengthen their trade and grow their cities.

We have all of the luxuries: Silk, Spices, Ivory, Gems. We will have a monopoly on Silk and Ivory. Spice and Gems are so rare we will be the only nation able to trade them.

Neu Dem will grow and then must decide who to war with. Frankly, I believe that we can bring GoW into a war against ND if they attack us, and I will order a strike on ND if they attack GoW. I believe that GoW + RP can contain ND.

The only nation that can hope to contain GS is Vox -- a pitiful nation with no luxuries, few natural resources, and no land. They will be the next nation to be eliminated unless they make this bold move, and even with this bold move I give them 1:4 odds of victory.

However, a bold attack by Vox gives us hope ... hope that GS's growth and power can be curtailed, and hope that one of our major future competators can be contained ... at least for a while longer. If GS is forced to spend production and energy on military, that's production lost from their economic and research powerhouse. We could see them drop back to earth and perhaps even lose a few key cities. This would be wonderful.

If Spain could send a few "volunteers" to attack GS along with GoW forces, our "Coalition" might actually destroy or permanently cripple GS. At the cost of a few swords? It's a bargain.

GoW would be on board. We could get ND on board with some sort of "Bob alliance" pep-talk. If ND can't send units, we ask them to send gold to Vox instead. Hell, if we can't send units, I'd agree to Vox's pre-buy for Engineering and send them cash to use to destroy GS.

--Togas

	08-04-2003 04:15									#15
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Something that is missing from this discussion - what will ND do when GoW sends units off to war with GS? Sounds like a ripe opportunity to invade. We might even encourage them to, so that we could then sink our fangs into their south flank.

	08-04-2003 04:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Togas The only nation that can hope to contain GS is Vox -- a pitiful nation with no luxuries, few natural resources, and no land. They will be the next nation to be eliminated unless they make this bold move, and even with this bold move I give them 1:4 odds of victory. However, a bold attack by Vox gives us hope ... hope that GS's growth and power can be curtailed, and hope that one of our major future competators can be contained ... at least for a while longer.

Not to play the role of opposition, but we must consider what the loss of Vox or their further vassalation would do to GS - by solidifying their control over the continent. This action has to be decisive, and it has to work or we will only have determined to give GS supremacy over the one nation that could hope to contain them.

I would like to point out though that I don't fear or respect GS as much as some do. They are just another team to me, and their members are as new to the MP arena as we are. If this is under-estimation, so be it, but I say leave the admiration on the side. You can't kill what you love.

	08-04-2003 05:18									#17
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If the Demogypticans begin a massive outflux of reinforcements to destroy the Voxians, or if they turn against the Warmongers, they by all means, sink our jaws into their flank...errr...wait...let's try again...sink our fork into their giant butt steak! That's more like it!

As it is, I don't think we can afford to support the Voxians in battle overseas...on land at least. Perhaps we could screw up Egyptian shipping lanes, though...take down a few galleys, and cut off their trade routes. It might work, and be effective. We should only take in troops once we've contained the Demogypticans and have troops enough to spare overseas.

Bob is the primary concern.

Cardinal Calamari

	08-04-2003 06:48									#18
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Something that is missing from this discussion - what will ND do when GoW sends units off to war with GS? Sounds like a ripe opportunity to invade. We might even encourage them to, so that we could then sink our fangs into their south flank.

I like the way you are thinking here!

Let me put together a proposal of sorts; a rough outline of what could happen:

When Vox starts its war with GS; ND will soon be privy to GoW involvement. I believe that this will draw ND's troops Northward, not neccesarily to ally with GoW or Vox against GS, but to make sure that it isn't just a ruse by GoW. You see, there will be signs that GoW is preparing for war that ND is sure to pick up on, and to protect themselves they will amass a certain amount of troops to the North. Something that they are probably already doing. Once the war starts, they will send troops at break-neck speed to the North.

If we immediately voice our support of Vox to the inhabitants of Bob(only), (and possibly even declare war on GS) this will have the effect of ND letting down their guard to the South. With 6-8 Swordmen and a few spears we could easily take 3 of ND's Southern cities, including the Capitol. ND would be effectively crippled, compared to us and GoW. GoW couldn't(because of support to Vox already) and probably wouldn't help ND. They'd probably want to take a city or two from the Northern part of ND. Both RP and GoW could make ND slaves to both nations. GoW would have the opportunity to have it's own supply of Iron.

I think RP is stronger than ND right now; maybe we should make that much stronger in the near future?! We don't want to wait until they have their UU. I think that they are in full REX mode and are concentrating on improving the land(lots of worker's.)
I think this is a good time for us to do what we would have to eventually do anyways.

	08-04-2003 07:35									#19
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Everybody’s talking about a Vox/GoW war. What if Vox declares war on ND? And perhaps GoW joins Vox?

	08-04-2003 11:10									#20
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I doubt Vox would declare war on ND, that would leave them two small half nations while consolidating their continent would leave them much stronger.

I do agree that at the current point we are at a military peak and outnumber ND and GoW. This is the best time to strike them as they have nothing left to do but build up since they have virtually exhausted their uncolonized space.

	08-04-2003 16:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Operation MacArthur This is to advise the world's nations that Vox Controli has returned to the continent. We have tried to negotiate a mutually-beneficial agreement with the continental nations, but as of yet have not reached such a comprehensive agreement. We come in peace. But we come in force. Our claim is to the small portion of the north-west corner of the continent. We can discuss this rationally, and we will explain our needs for a maximum settlement of five cities - fairly tightly packed. We can even agree on city placement, and we will sign an agreement that this will be the extent of any claim we have on the continent. We would also ask that the city of Wittlich West be peacefully returned to its rightful owners - the Voxian people. We are willing to come to any reasonable agreement on this matter. However, we are willing to defend our claim to this land. In fact, the operation is so named as the last Vox leader to leave the continent after our earlier expedition claimed "People of Wittlich West - I will return". He is committed to staying this time. And Vox Controli has ensured that he has the military backing to keep that commitment. If war is the path chosen, such a war of attrition will only serve to weaken all the nations involved - at the expense of those involved. So, I plead for reason to prevail in this matter. Let peace and prosperity carry the day. We are open to discuss this matter at any time. Please contact any member of our team if you wish to talk. Peace. BetaHound Voice of Foreign Affairs Vox Controli

Vox is clearly not up to attacking GS. The question is now: do we support our allies in the Bob Alliance or do we want to back Vox?

Aidun Cian the older

	08-04-2003 17:53									#22
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Señor Aidun,

It could be a stratagem. I doubt that Vox will fight on the Bob continent instead against GS. If I'm right, they need to amass forces without alarming GS, while claiming lands in our continent.

	08-04-2003 18:07									#23
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Hmmm, you are probebly right I see that I have been too often in the Vatican and not in the foreign politics

Aidun Cian the older

	08-04-2003 20:32									#24
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We must join in the public protests of this 2nd invasion. I will meet with the other Pact Nations to discuss this ... however, my feeling is that this is a giant ruse, and one that we should play along with.

However, if they ARE truely invading our continent, we should consider the possibility of attacking Neu Dem while they are in the midst of war with Vox.

--Togas

	08-04-2003 21:46									#25
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This is an hypothesis.

Vox has been vassalized by GS a long time ago. Since then GS uses Vox as a middleman apparently independent for marketing their techs and collecting gold. Consequently, the intent of Vox to wage war against GS is a lie aiming to explain a military build up for both Vox and GS. The only other possibility is that this war is suicidal attempt for Vox to end a game they have no chance to win.

The situation on Bob is such that nobody can send an expeditionary corps on the other continent. Until we have cleared our way of ND, we cannot spare even two swordsmen. It is not a priority to weaken GS, when ND is strengthening. Our priority must be to get Feudalism and attack ND. Then we will take care of GS primarily in fortifying Bob in order to prevent landing on our shores of GS forces (roads on coast tiles : this project could be shared with GoW and ND). When we will have our Conquistadores, it will be time to make plans to invade GS.

Meantime, we should stop giving all our gold to future enemies for financing their research, and rather use our revenue for our own research (Chivalry, Gun Powder, Cavalry). Any gold provided to Vox will be either a waste, adverse to our research effort or necessary upgrading when we get Feudalism, or a gift to GS.

	08-04-2003 21:52									#26
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Neutrality. No other option makes much sence. Let them fight it out amongst themselves. Keep our gold for our own use (we need it!!).

	08-04-2003 22:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT This is an hypothesis. Vox has been vassalized by GS a long time ago. Since then GS uses Vox as a middleman apparently independent for marketing their techs and collecting gold. Consequently, the intent of Vox to wage war against GS is a lie aiming to explain a military build up for both Vox and GS. The only other possibility is that this war is suicidal attempt for Vox to end a game they have no chance to win.

That's pretty interesting, but what reason would Vox have to remain a vassal nation to GS? ...especially when you consider that, vassal or not, they will be the ones that stand in GS's way when possibilities for expansion become limited, and they will be the first to suffer from such support.

If the logic is to win the game, then that "suicidal attempt" you are referring to may be the only reasonable choice. Anyway, they have RP and GoW support for their action... if mainly in a financial sense. A first strike with overwhelming force and a little luck could re-establish them in the game.

Its still very interesting though; I suppose we should not discount some ultra-secret pact between GS and Vox.

	08-04-2003 22:25									#28
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I see no evidence of Vassalization, nor do any of the recent clues point to it.

Interestingly, there have been no images posted or emailed to me an "invasion", nor has anyone from ND or GoW contacted me yet to discuss how to repell the invaders.

If this IS hype, they're doing a good job of it and we WILL aid Vox in toppling Gathering Storm. I ask OliverFA to post one of his excellent score graphs to show you the evidence ... Gathering Storm has been growing at a fierce rate, and if Vox isn't the one to check their growth, no one will. Furthermore, their capital is just to the east of Madrid, a short boat trip away. Once Vox is contained, if they choose to invade this continent, we will be the ones who be destroyed.

However, IF this reinvasion is true, we must keep in mind that in 10 turns our Non-Agg with Neu Dem runs out. Neu Dem has a new Governor who may not be aware of this fact. I propose that we continue at full military development and if this war comes to us ... we seriously consider taking out ND while they are fighting Vox.

--Togas

	08-04-2003 22:47									#29
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Togas,

I agree, but we can't continue our military development if our two military factories, Madrid and Zaragoza, are ordered to build Marketplaces, already or very soon.

We must find another cities for that, maybe Pamplona could build a more profitable marketplace after the completion of its current settler in queue.

	09-04-2003 00:20									#30
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Hmm... It's a difficult question, Astrologicus.
I am also concerned about the military production, and I hope those cities with barracks can build more offensive units right now.

Nevertheless, many of our cities are close to pop.5 now, and I think it's a good time for them to produce a settler each. We should definitly have two more settlers to get ahead of those REXers out there. In Barcelona it would take some time, but in both Zaragoza, Pamplona and Madrid a settler would be quicker to produce. Then offensive units can be built simultanously, and we can start a marketplace right afterwards.

IMHO, Zaragoza should be starting on a settler now, or just build some more swordsmen.

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 09-04-2003 at 02:17