Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Has Modern Art Always Been Torture?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
King
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:27
Wink  Old Post 07-04-2003 08:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Has Modern Art Always Been Torture? Got spare money?

From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/30/a...ign/30ROCK.html

quote:

Has Modern Art Always Been Torture?


By JOHN ROCKWELL

ADOLF HITLER hated Modernist painting. He was convinced it was a Jewish plot (Jewish painters, Jewish dealers, Jewish collectors). But whatever the racial origins of the artists, he thought their works were ugly and perverted.

"It is not the function of art to wallow in dirt for dirt's sake, never its task to paint men only in a state of decomposition, to draw cretins as symbols of motherhood, to picture hunch-backed idiots as representatives of manly strength," he orated at a decadent-art exhibition in Dresden in 1935, as quoted in Frederic Spotts's new book, "Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics." "There really are men," he went on, "who in principle feel meadows to be blue, the heavens green, clouds sulphur-yellow."
Advertisement


Let us now imagine that Hitler did not die in his Berlin bunker in 1945 but was captured by the Allies and imprisoned. And not imprisoned in any ordinary jail cell, but one tricked up in earnest imitation of what were then the latest Modernist and Surrealist paintings. His cell would be a distorted room like those of Kandinsky and Klee, with geometric drawings on the walls to make him sick to his stomach.

It would be 6 feet high and 3 feet wide and 6 feet long, airless and hot, with the sleeping area so angled that he would slide off onto the floor whenever he tried to lie down, and with jutting protuberances to impede free motion. And on one side, an endless loop of the eyeball-slicing scene from Luis Buñuel's 1929 film "Un Chien Andalou."

A sick fantasy? José Milicua, a Spanish art historian, has produced solid evidence that during the Spanish Civil War, the leftist Republicans designed and built just such cells, turning the art of Modernism and Surrealism into overt instruments of torture for their right-wing enemies.

Construction of the cells was begun in May 1938, primarily in Barcelona, the capital of Spanish-Catalan Modernism. Their principal designer, as documented in a book by R. L. Chacon called "Why I Made the Cells in Barcelona," was a shifty character named Alfonso Laurencic.

Laurencic was an Austrian-born Frenchman who apparently defrauded both the Republicans and Francisco Franco's Falangist revolutionaries. He called his cells and queasy-making wall squiggles "psychotechnic torture," thus neatly conflating notions of psychiatry with technocratic modernism. At his trial by Franco's victorious forces in June 1939, he claimed that he had made the cells under duress.

The thought comes to mind, of course, that the very idea of Modernist torture cells was a fantasy, a Falangist extension of Hitler's diatribes. But Mr. Milicua seems to take the evidence seriously, as does Victoria Combalía, a noted Catalan art critic, who reported his findings in El País, the national newspaper published in Madrid.

One has to wonder what the artists who inspired these cells might have thought of this novel use of their art. For while conservatives have long railed at the perverse distortions, as they saw them, of Modernism, they usually assumed — even Hitler assumed — that the artists were simply seeing the world in a new way or expressing their personal feelings or making social commentary or resolving formalist problems.

On the other hand, a subcurrent of shock and provocation has always lurked within avant-garde art, which deliberately sets out to challenge bourgeois convention and to elicit a strong response. My own experience has been that opponents of new art are much too quick to presume provocation, let alone provocation intended literally to torture. Still, there can be no doubt that outrage was and is a goal of some artists, even if they rarely pushed it to the logical extreme that Laurencic took it.

Given the very idea of art torture, the idle among us might start to muse about other options along these lines. Many classical-music concertgoers already regard the 12-tone music of Arnold Schoenberg as a form of torture. But sticking to the visual, what about a diabolical maze constructed of Mondrian patterns or the tilted arcs of Richard Serra? Seeing the object of your amorous attentions sliced up cubistically? Getting lost in the dream world of a Robert Gober installation? How about having to live among Matthew Barney's weirdly androgynous creatures? The possibilities are endless, creepier as the mind wanders.

Of course, many Modernists and Surrealists may not have regarded their visions as disturbing, let alone as suitable for torture. They may instead have hoped that their works would improve mankind, especially the incarcerated portion thereof.

Salvador Dalí seemed to regard his works as downright therapeutic. We know this from the recent heist of a Dalí painting of the Crucifixion from Rikers Island in New York City. Susan Saulny wrote in The New York Times earlier this month that Dalí dashed off the work in less than two hours in 1965 after a fever had prevented him from a planned visit to the prison.

The visit had been arranged by Anna Moscowitz Kross, then the commissioner of New York's Department of Correction, who, Ms. Saulny wrote, was "passionate about art as a rehabilitative therapy." The Dalí painting looks like cruciform iconography with a splattery Rorschach blot where the head of Jesus should be. Less aggressively distorted than some of Dalí's earlier work, it hung in the jail's dining room for 16 years; its effect on the prisoners' digestive tracts and states of mind is not known. It was eventually transferred to a display case in the jail lobby, from which it was lifted.

Ultimately, psychotechnic torture can be seen as a tribute to the power of art. If Modernist art wasn't strong and disorienting, Hitler wouldn't have bothered to attack it. Alfonso Laurencic drew the logical conclusion from such revulsion.

Free people can walk out of a gallery or museum they find disturbing. Prisoners cannot walk out of jail, and in his bizarrely ingenious way, Laurencic knew how to take advantage of that better than most.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 08:36 Visit Asher's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Mmhmm

Zero is offline Zero
King
Bouncing back and forth
Sep 2002
time: 00:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 08:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If it is weird and makes me say "WTF" its art enough for me.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 08:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I can think of many ways to torture people with culture, though modernist art is not high on the list of most effective ways to break a mans sould down.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
King
Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 09:48 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I find it pretty effective.

molly bloom is offline molly bloom
Prince
Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 11:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Modern art includes the Impressionists, the Post-Impressionists, and various other groups and movements not necessarily renowned for producing 'horrific' work or work designed to torture. I would rather have a piece of art that challenges the way I see the world than some bland cliched morass of second rate jejune lowest common denominator cack.

By the way- the Isenheim Altarpiece by Grunewald is fairly explicit in depicting the physical degradation and corruption of the physical form of Christ- bleeding head wounds, suppurating sores, et cetera. Choice.

Also there are various Renaissance artworks that depict such charming things as the beheading of John the Baptist, with blood spurting out in a great arc, saints having their intestines removed, St Ursula having her breasts ripped off, St Lucy with her eyes on a plate or tray, the nightmare works of Hieronymus Bosch, the grotesques of Breughel, and so on, and so on.

I'd rather have Schoenberg than Barry Manilow or Mantovani or James Last. And I'd happily have a cell lined with Klee watercolours and Kandinsky paintings.

Richard Bruns is offline Richard Bruns
King
NC, USA
Nov 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 14:19 Visit Richard Bruns's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Lots of things fall into the category of modern art. Nobody would ever call a Jackson Pollock painting torture.

However, all of the art described as being part of the torture cell involves distortions in perspective. This kind of disorientation can be quite painful; no longer knowing how wide something is or which direction is up can seriously unravel a mind. It would be quite possible to use certain kinds of modern art to make a cell of Lovecraftian, otherworldly, madness-inducing blasphemies against geometry.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 14:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The silly cow who said her unmade bed was a piece of art needs shooting

FrustratedPoet is offline FrustratedPoet
Emperor
All Glory To The Hypnotoad!
Mar 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 14:44 Visit FrustratedPoet's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
I would rather have a piece of art that challenges the way I see the world than some bland cliched morass of second rate jejune lowest common denominator cack.


That may be the first time ever that the words "morass" and "jejune" have appeared in the same sentence as "cack".

molly bloom wins the comic juxtaposition trophy for today.

Hurricane is offline Hurricane
Warlord
Arctic Hill
May 2001
time: 07:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 18:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments



Short answer: no. Long answer: no.

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
Prince
Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 18:10
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
The silly cow who said her unmade bed was a piece of art needs shooting


ain't that the truth, if everyone who had a messy room got £20,000 for it, i'd be well sorted

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 18:14 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In the library of the french academy, in all that quiet, seating in front of a window streaming pure light and next to it a painting... the helmet of a knight, his horse in full movement, his gauntlet and the lance, leaned forward in bold thrust and the moon looming in the background. Looking closely, little by little the helmet of the knight became the helmet of a motorcyclist, the gauntlet his glove, the horse his motorcycle, the lance its forward axis and the moon its front mirror... all those in front of my eyes.

modern art, I love it.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 18:16
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
In the library of the french academy, in all that quiet, seating in front of a window streaming pure light and next to it a painting... the helmet of a knight, his horse in full movement its gauntlet and the lance, leanedforward in bold thrust and the moon looming in the background. Looking closely, little by little the helmet of the knight became the helmet of a motorcyclist, the gauntlet his glove, the horse his motorcycle, the lance its forward axis and the moon its front mirror... all those in front of my eyes.

modern art, I love it.


That sounds good. The unmade bed is what I've got a problem with

Bereta_Eder is offline Bereta_Eder
Prince

Oct 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 18:18 Visit Bereta_Eder's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Dont know anything about the bed, if you want to talk synthetic rytine, I'm game

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 19:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm surprised Snapcase hasn't posted yet. He's the exact sort of person who'd say seeing a piece of shit lying there, or an unmade bed, is a piece of art.

mox is offline mox
Warlord

Mar 2003
time: 00:27
  Old Post 07-04-2003 19:54 Visit mox's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I find that creating it is torture enough...

[edit] re: an unmade bed being art... it depends. is it in the middle of a gallery? is is 3'x5' photograph of an unmade bed? art in theory, yes. art has to be/should be seen.

Last edited by mox on 07-04-2003 at 20:32

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:27.
Apolyton Time is 00:27.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0394 seconds (91.22% PHP - 8.78% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net