15-03-2001 19:48									#1
	Stirring things up - help wanted Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I've been playing ToT-extended game a lot lately. One thing that I've noticed is that the alien AI is usually by far the strongest. (for those unfamiliar with ToT: the aliens start out alone, on AC, where they develop undisturbedly without contact with any other Civs). Apart from their endless room for territorial expansion, their strength is probably due to them being able to develop peacefully. It more than makes up for the drawbacks of not being able to trade techs and open up trade routes with other civs. It has opened my eyes to the incredibly debilitating, counterproductive forces of war. So, I'm now gradually working towards a strategy that has every AI waging war with every other AI constantly.
Two questions:

What are the factors that make an AI declare war on another?
And, consequently, how can the human player stimulate the outbreak and prolongation of inter-AI wars?

How is the price calculated for the demand by the AI when you ask him to declare war against another?

Any further hints or tips involving provoking wars are appreciated, from the obvious that I may overlook, like keeping the UN out of their hands, to maybe certain techs or units that trigger a more aggressive approach by an AI.

	15-03-2001 21:29									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hi Hasdrubal, long time no see ...

Spend a few minutes looking at the Invasion Earth thread here in the General forum - there is definite evidence that the AI performs strongly on Earth when the human player opts to play as an alien ...
Wonder if this is ToT or as you conjecture being left on its own ...

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	16-03-2001 10:29									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm...

Both of your questions strike me as good ones. At first blush I've very little idea on either point.

The sum sought for a declaration of war certainly grows over time but that is not a very useful observation.

I seem to remember speculating at one time that the sum sought might bear a relationship to the power of the proposed enemy - less powerful, less subsidy demanded - but I don't think game playing experience has deepened or dispelled that particular speculation.

The potential of inducing wars is well illustrated in the WW2 scenario shipped with the game. Playing England you can invite Russia to attack the Axis and the invite is accepted with just a trivial 50 gold sweetener. They then slug it out along an extended front and that makes life much easier.

But that doesn't help with your questions as it must be an inbuilt feature of the scenario.

I'll be interested to see what other posters have to say.

(But only after I get back from a week's skiing in Austria - Hurrah!!!)

	16-03-2001 10:54									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

To add to EST's speculation, I have always thought that the gold related to both the strength of the enemy and the attitude of the civ receiving your offer to that enemy. Hence the declaration of loyaly to an ally - Unless you have 10,500 gold, that is. Or the paltry 50 gold to spank some wimpy civ they already hate. Somebody would have to cheat through an array of situations to see what the cost is. This sounds like something SlowThinker would be good at...

As for the original question, this could get expensive if bribery is the only effective way. After all, how many times have we done this, only to have the two warring nations ally with each other against you two turns later? Blasted ingrates...

------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

	16-03-2001 12:38									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you really want a sense of how this can work, try playing as the aliens! I'm currently playing an "Alien Invasion" game like the succession one going on elsewhere, and have noticed the same thing (note that I'm not playing at Deity, though): with a whole map to myself and no need to build an army, I've managed to build 50+ cities without sleazing, amass 30,000g, get a discovery every turn, build 14 or 15 wonders (and could have built more), and launch my 40,000 colonist ship in 1772. For me, that's really something.

As for your questions, though, I only have one small hint: build the Great Wall and the UN, then try to share maps, sharing with the expansionists last. With any luck, you'll find expansionist civs who won't go to war with you (because of the wonders) but will go to war with another civ whose location you've just revealed. It's a small trick, but it can work.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

	16-03-2001 18:37									#6
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Nice idea, that, Rufus T. A subtle use of maps indeed!

	20-03-2001 19:16									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hi SC!
Thanks for the neat tip, Rufus.
As for my latest game, my Machiavellian schemes have only resulted in everybody else making 'Warschau'-pacts against me.
Guess they just hate my innocent, peaceful Carthaginian blood.

	21-03-2001 13:18									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hasdrubal -- you were supreme, right? One of the things that seems clear is that being supreme brings the wrath of the AI and constant warfare. By contrast, check out my last game: Deity, 7 civs, raging hordes, but I was only 2nd or 3rd on the power graph until the very end of the game. As a result, I was almost never at war and, since I had the UN, the one or two times war broke out at the end of the game I got a quick peace. By contast, the last 1/3 of the game for the AI was a ceaseless world war, with everyone taking pieces out of everyone else while I peacefully made my way to AC. By contrast to that contrast, at the very end of the game, when I did become supreme (because I was We-Love-Rufus-ing my population up), two or three civs sneak-attacked at once.

One more thing: it really helps not to have a land border with the AI. The AI seems always to go after its neighbors first (as I do, for that matter), so if you can secure a land mass or two and stay put you're more likely to stay out of war.

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited March 22, 2001).]