07-04-2003 21:40									#1
	Manhattan Project??? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hi everybody....

After a much needed break I'm back for a wee bit. I've been trying to catch up in AU207 and am amazed at how far you all have gotten. Anyway, on to the question.

Does anyone build the Manhattan Project(MP)? I saw Mountain Sage building it in one of his screens and it made me think. I never build it. Correct me if I'm wrong but it lets everyone build nukes right? Assuming I'm right about what the MP does, I don't want the other civs getting their grubby little hands on nukes for as long as possible. I don't use them pretty much ever. I've only been tempted once(AU 204) and didn't have to use them in the end.

I'll appreciate all your insight and wisdom. Glad to be back.

BigD

	07-04-2003 23:17									#2
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I can't speak for everyone, but by the time I'm in the modern era, the game is usually all but won, and if it isn't, I'm too busy building spaceship components or the UN to build MP. Last game I played, I launched my spaceship before the rest of the world got tanks! Gotta love AU206 and the celts .

Of course, you could build MP for culture, or to get an early jump on the AIs in building up a nuclear presence, but I think most of the time, I've won before I've needed to use nukes.

	08-04-2003 01:21									#3
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I would never build it. I hate nuclear war (some of that is an old CivII hatred... the AI was seriously nuke-happy in CivII) and if the AI wants nukes, I'll let them spend the shields on the MP.

edit: besides, it can be useful as a pre-build for SS parts.

I also am usually busy beelining for a SS win in the Modern Age (or domination).

-Arrian

	08-04-2003 01:50									#4
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I often find it valuable as a pre-build for other wonders or SS parts. I almost never actually build it.

Catt

	08-04-2003 10:36									#5
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let AI build it for u...

Then u can build nukes also and let them suffer for what they had bring into the world

	08-04-2003 16:12									#6
	Re: Manhattan Project??? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by BigDork Hi everybody.... Does anyone build the Manhattan Project(MP)? I saw Mountain Sage building it in one of his screens and it made me think. BigD

Good to have you back

What, me the Perfect Peacenik building the Manhattan Project. Why for, since I never built a single nuclear warhead in all my games in Civ3.

Well, just for my collection of GW

It's just a show-off if my French might: building simultaneously the UN, the MP, the Apollp P., SETI.

By now, you should know I am not the most modest civver in this forum.

	08-04-2003 22:27									#7
	Re: Re: Manhattan Project??? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage Good to have you back

Thanks MS. But it's only for a short time. In 2 weeks I'm goin' on vacation. Back to the states for a month. No offense to you Germans out there, I love your country but dang it, I miss the US.

Anyways, got a new question. Which wonders do you think aren't worth the shields to produce them?

Obviously I think that MP is one. I just feel that the AI with nukes is a bad thing and like keep it that way for as long as possible. But what else? I don't think I've ever built the HG. Usually at that point in the game I'm either going for the GL or the Pyramids.

BigD

	08-04-2003 22:45									#8
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Other than the MP...

The Oracle. Definitely a waste.
The Great Lighthouse on a Pangea map.
Ditto Magellan.
Longevity - yeah, that's right, I want a wonder that makes my cities grow past their sustainable levels so they starve back down. Where do I sign up?

-Arrian

	08-04-2003 22:53									#9
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Manhattan Project is a SMALL Wonder (i.e., I have made it so).
If there are other civs who are a challenge (they have MI or are technologically 'up there'), I might build it around the time of my getting Space Flight. It's either for the MAD, or for surgical strikes against metroes (followed by MA), politics and army strengths permitting.

	09-04-2003 03:00									#10
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For the AIs to build nuclear weapons, they actually need two things. (1) They need for someone to have built the Manhatten Project. (2) They need the requisite technologies for the weapons themselves. If I don't expect the AIs to ever meet the second criterion, I'm usually happy to provide the first just to add another wonder to my wonder collection. If I do think an AI might get the tech for nukes, I'll generally leave the Manhatten Project for an AI to research, although building it for collection purposes is always tempting if I have a leader with nothing better to do and need to use him for something so I can get another one.

I do occasionally build nuclear weapons, but I've never actually used one in Civ 3. Nor have I ever had one used on me (for which I am profoundly grateful).

	09-04-2003 06:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay although building it for collection purposes is always tempting if I have a leader with nothing better to do and need to use him for something so I can get another one.

Let me get this straight, so you use a leader on something you don't need or necessarily want so you can get another leader which I presume you don't have a use for either?

	09-04-2003 06:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by badams52 Let me get this straight, so you use a leader on something you don't need or necessarily want so you can get another leader which I presume you don't have a use for either?

Exactly.

Seriously, if I expect to get another leader the same turn, and my current leader has nothing better to do, I would pretty much have to have an explicit desire to avoid building the Manhatten Project not to have the leader build it. That's a rather different proposition from being willing to build it from scratch.

Where the other leader comes in is that even if I don't have anything better to do now, there may be a future wonder I could save a leader for. If I don't expect another leader soon, using a leader to rush the Manhatten Project jeopardizes the prospect of using a leader to rush a later wonder. But if I have enough elite battles coming up that I'm almost sure to get another leader, using the current leader to rush the Manhatten Project is essentially free.

Nathan

	09-04-2003 07:25									#13
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In regard to Arrian's "useless wonders" list, in the standard game, Longevity comes so late that I agree it can easily be more nuisance than asset. But playing with the Apolyton University Mod which moves Longevity to Sanitation, I often find it highly valuable. It comes shortly after hospitals (maybe even before hospitals if I have a leader at the right time), and often shortly after some large-scale cavalry conquest as well, and thus gives my wealth and production a faster boost than they could get otherwise.

Nathan

	09-04-2003 07:33									#14
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True, under the AU Mod, Longevity might make sense.

I agree, btw, that if the AI gets the tech & resources for nukes, I haven't done my job, and therefore building the MP should be no biggie. If I had a leader sitting around, I'd be tempted to use him as you describe.

However, I'd be more likely to save him for the Internet (then again, if I'm comfortably ahead, I would probably research my way there prior to going for Fission).

How many leaders in AU207, Nathan? I'm up to 9.

-Arrian

	09-04-2003 07:58									#15
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Maybe around nineteen? Three against Japan, two in my last attack on the Mongols, about eight against the Vikings, and I think something like six in my earlier wars. (Many of them built armies at times when I expected more leaders shortly, not that I'm actually doing anything with most of the armies at the moment.) I may be able to get a more exact number when and if I get around to doing a really thorough AAR.

By the way, AU 207 was one of my "Rush Manhatten because there's nothing better to do" games. The turn I discovered Fission, I rushed the U.N. with a leader left over from the Japanese war, attacked the Mongols, got another leader, rushed the Manhatten Project, kept attacking, and got another leader to rush the Cure for Cancer when I get the tech for it. (At least I think the second leader from the Mongol war was the same turn; it might have been a turn later.)

Nathan

	09-04-2003 08:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian True, under the AU Mod, Longevity might make sense.

Might? I know you hate the micromanagement involved, but think of Longevity as a form of granary. The growth is amazingly powerful -- I think that the AU Mod makes it too powerful because it comes too early, the standard game makes it a second thought because it comes too late.

To avoid the growth-starvation cycle you dislike, you can either: (1) pillage one tile of RR if your workers aren't automated (i.e., they won't come "fix" your pillage the next turn), or (2) plant a forest on a grassland or plains, eliminate an irrigation, etc. It's usually pretty easy to stabilize any given city's population, and the doubled growth offered by Longevity is a big boon - especially, as I said, in the AU Mod when Longevity comes with Sanitation.

Give it a chance in conjunction with some growth stabilization techniques

(But yes, the Oracle is a horrible investment of shields ).

Catt

	10-04-2003 12:50									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Other than the MP... The Oracle. Definitely a waste. The Great Lighthouse on a Pangea map. Ditto Magellan. Longevity - yeah, that's right, I want a wonder that makes my cities grow past their sustainable levels so they starve back down. Where do I sign up? -Arrian

I would add the Great Wall and unfortunately the Colossus (if you beeline for the G. Lighthouse, Pyramids and the G. Library, it's difficult to get all four).

Playing with an industrious/commercial civ, I often don't build the 'happiness' Wonders (except Sistine and sometimes JSB). I buy the extra happiness with luxuries exchanged for techs.

I also almost never build Universal Suffrage since I'm not often at war and beeline for ToE.

Finally, I also almost never build modern Wonders (except the UN and Apollo, of course): by then, I am in the tech lead and don't need SETI, just build the SS components and fly away...

But again, it also depends on your playing style. If you are a warmonger, you get more leaders and can use them for more Wonders.

I have to build everything (including the FP) the hard way...