07-04-2003 22:31									#1
	What to do with Warrior BigFree? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I've created this thread to discuss and brainstorm options on what should be done with BigFree, now that he is clearly caught behind enemy lines.

1) We station BigFree on a mountain to watch the progress and development of GCA & CDG. He acts as a forward observer and probably unnerves one or both of our southern neighbors.

At some point they will either ask us to send him home, or his post will fall within their cultural borders. At that point they'll demand that he leave, and we'll be able to legitamately negotiate a path for his removal. If they want him to go (and they will) they'll have to relent and allow his passage through their lands.

2) We offer to pay a "travel fee" to GCA so that BigFree can cross through their border and continue to the South East. We tie this offer and payment to our proposed tech trade to get both deals done. They get money for nothing and we get to continue exploring. We also succeed in getting a needed tech trade.

I would propose a payment of 25g, but this should be discussed.

3) We wait for the Non-Agg to run out then move him where we want. Clearly this is not the nicest option but given the fact that we have all the war techs and they really can't do anything except attack BigFree with warriors, this option (although somewhat rude) should not be ignored. After a turn or two of tensions ... and after we've moved BigFree past them without attacking them, we then make a new Non-Agg deal.


My preference is for option #2.

--Togas

	07-04-2003 22:48									#2
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Agreed. Though more than 25 gold would be too expensive.

If we propose this, we can observe their reaction. If they strongly refuse, we might conclude that there is something of interest (a 4th Civ perhaps) behind the lines.

	07-04-2003 23:24									#3
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I also agree with #2.

Let's see what the FAM can do for us here, there's not much I can do at this point.

	07-04-2003 23:31									#4
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Bah to #2! (Oh come on, you know that was coming.)

I'd much rather know the growth of my foes- the better to prepare for whatever need be done. Let's keep him there until THEY want him gone- screw paying money for it. We might also get lucky and see a CFC galley float by... I think we ought to try and secure southward passage WITHOUT money at first, in any case, and then offer money later. We could always trade it for allowing one warrior of GCA's to explore north.... nothing they won't find with their first galley anyhow, and they won't get any contact benefits from it, whereas we will from going south (probably.)

In short: Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! (Loosely applied.)

	08-04-2003 00:12									#5
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I agree with Fried-Psitalon (for a change!).

Hm, come to think of, I disagree with him! We need to contact CFC. Whatever makes it so, make it so!


Dominae

	08-04-2003 02:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Bah to #2! (Oh come on, you know that was coming.) I'd much rather know the growth of my foes- the better to prepare for whatever need be done. Let's keep him there until THEY want him gone- screw paying money for it. We might also get lucky and see a CFC galley float by... I think we ought to try and secure southward passage WITHOUT money at first, in any case, and then offer money later. We could always trade it for allowing one warrior of GCA's to explore north.... nothing they won't find with their first galley anyhow, and they won't get any contact benefits from it, whereas we will from going south (probably.) In short: Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute! (Loosely applied.)

W2 won't do anything significant where he is. Assuming CFC is on the coast and gets Map Making and Galleys, that won't be for another 50 turns. There's a lot of exploring to be done in 50 turns. The profits we gain from contacting CFC easily offset the cost of paying GCA 25 gold to pass through their lands.

That's something I learned against the AI is that most of the time it's better to suck up your pride for a minute to gain more than you would lose by giving in. Like bribing the AI civs to fight each other when 1 team declares war on you. You can suck up your pride and pay them off to help you, or you can end up in a situation where your enemy does that instead... and you have the entire world at war with you.

	08-04-2003 03:00									#7
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I think contact with CFC is #1 priority. The threat of them and us in an alliance would probably be a pretty good way to augment our Numidian Mercs.

	08-04-2003 03:11									#8
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Pay them? I don't like that idea.

I think if we park, they will come to us and ask for him to depart. When they do, we can suggest that we need their permission to cross. They will give it to see him gone, I'm sure.

No tension required. They ask, we say sure, allow us the path.

	08-04-2003 03:14									#9
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I'm sure they'll be happy to have us keep our Warrior there for another 30 turns, and when they cover the frontier with the blackness, they'll then ask us to disband our Warrior. I believe this is what one of them told us before when we insisted on scouting to the south.

	08-04-2003 03:33									#10
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Patience.

Give them a chance to come to the conclusion that they would rather not have us watching their development. No need to rush into anything.

	08-04-2003 05:39									#11
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They are not likely to agree to #2, IMO, if it means we can get contact with CFC. If the city on the coast South of WBigFree blocks passage to CFC somehow, with it's border's, they will gladly take our money since we can not get through anyways. Then it is a big waste of money on our part.

Offer the deal, just to judge their reaction; but comeback that our team has decided against it when they accept. This will make it seem we 'found' another way, or have made contact! Then we can watch them squirm.

I would rather wait for the NAP to end and make the movement of WBigFree conditional to another NAP with them (or CDG). Until then, just explore what little land there is left. I definately don't want to pay them anything.

	08-04-2003 09:07									#12
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Whatever gets us close to CFC is the best, if that ends up costing us 25 so be it...the long-term advantages will definitely make it worth it.

did I say that???

Last edited by Master Zen on 08-04-2003 at 09:28

	08-04-2003 09:21									#13
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Right, and GCA is likely to accept 25 gold to allow us the path to CFC.

The only thing I would say for sure, is that if they agreed, we would be flushing the 25 gold by going in that direction.

	08-04-2003 10:19									#14
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Option 2, but tie it in with a tech trade or something
We should be able to get out of paying anything to move him back.

I would let him wander around where he is, along their borders and generally make a nuisanse of himself. Their request for his removal will come quicker.

	08-04-2003 10:33									#15
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Keep him in place, ready to harrass and pilage if war is loose.
He also make it impossible to let them Harvest Barbarian from this area

	08-04-2003 12:53									#16
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I tend to agree with those that say we would be needlessly throwing gold through the window. GCA is no fools - they know how valuable teh CFC contact is. If crossing their territory allows making the contact, they will not agree to the deal. If it does not allow it, they will happily take our money and have a good laugh...

I would keep him where he is and wait until they themselves realize they do not want him there...

Also, quite a wild idea crossed my mind... what about trying to trade our world map with GCA? (Don't bash me, it is just a brainstorming idea...) They are in no position to do harm to us, even with the map... if they team up with CDG, they would most likely share their geographical knowledge anyway - and the only thing CDG probably does not know is what we have to the North of us. By exchanging maps, they would gain just about as much as we would, I think... and they may start feeling more comfortable dealing with us, as they'd see we have some pretty crappy land to start with. And in exchange, we would be able to assess their economic potential...

Just one wild idea...

	08-04-2003 13:18									#17
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We'll need a certain tech for that, don't we ..?

	08-04-2003 13:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster We'll need a certain tech for that, don't we ..?

Oops...
Of course... forget it then...
Mixing the two DGs together...

	08-04-2003 16:59									#19
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Yes, I certainly believe the devious way of allowing us to pay them for the privilege of travelling in an already explored direction nowhere near any other civs is what will happen. Let's keep BigFree there. So what if we aren't busting our guts to get to CFC? We'll get contact sooner or later. We have our hands full with GCA and CDG at the moment, as well as being in the early stage of expansion. I believe we should cement our status with these guys first before having too much to concentrate on. We don't seem to have too many ambassadors as it is.

	08-04-2003 22:52									#20
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Perhaps we could try a bit of interrogation of GCA to see where CFC is...

Okay, probably not.

NYE is probably right. Both of our neighbors have been adamant about blocking scouting, and if there was anything valuable nearby, then there's no way GCA would fork over something so valuable for 25 gold...

	09-04-2003 10:28									#21
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I think that he has done a great job already, and pushed some stupid city-placement from GCA and CDG.

If we place him good maybe we could harvest Barbarians with him.