10-04-2003 19:50									#31
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Cockney - a lot of people are against refusing all asylum seekers.

eh?

quote: And Kropt is right - we have a declining population - aren't we going to be needing these people in a few years?

well i suppose that would depend on demographic trends, in france for example the birth rate is rising again, i think it's between 1.9 and 2.0, 2.1 is the rate at which the population is maintained. if something similar happens in the UK within the next few years, we won't need as many immigrants.

and if it doesn't, then surely it would be better to have a proper system of immigration so that we only get the sort of people that we want. rather than have every tom, dick and abdul coming here by abusing the asylum system.

	10-04-2003 19:54									#32
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Our birth rate is declining and shows no signs of picking up. It think it;s current less than 1.8, thouh I'm not 100% sure. The noyl reason our population is growing at all is due to immigration.

	10-04-2003 19:56									#33
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which is what my second point, err, points at

	10-04-2003 19:57									#34
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There's nothing really wrong witht he one we have at the moment. Asylum seeker's aren't costing that much and aren't as big a problem as it is being made out.

	10-04-2003 20:00									#35
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so you think it's better to have everyone come here by abusing the asylum system rather than have a proper system in place which ensures that only those who we want to come in do so?

	10-04-2003 20:03									#36
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But who are the collective 'we'? You have to remember there are an awful lot of racist bigots in this country - and do you think the public would allow refugess from Iraq, etc?

It's not about who we want - it's about who is in danger. Until recently we didn't allow people in who were going to be killed due to sexual orientation, for example.

It's surely a plus to our society if we let people in. Do you think the US would be in as good a position as it is now if it wasn't for immigration? And we would have been in big ytrouble if it wasn't for the immigration of the 60s.

	10-04-2003 20:16									#37
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quote: It's not about who we want - it's about who is in danger. Until recently we didn't allow people in who were going to be killed due to sexual orientation, for example.

you seem to be confusing asylum seekers with immigrants in general (which i was talking about). with regard to asylum seeker, you are right, it isn't about who we want, but with immigrants it should certainly be about who we want.

we, i suppose i'm talking about the country as a whole. in this context i mean people britain want and need to immigrate, doctors, nurses, teachers, IT specialists and others with useful skills.

i agree that britain can benefit greatly from letting people in, but i think that there should be a proper system in place for doing so.

the risks of letting the abuse of the asylum system continue have been shown in recent months, many of those arrested on terrorism related chanrges (including in connection with the ricin poison in london) recently have been asylum seekers. a jamacian cleric in london, of the same ilk as captain hook and who has been linked with funding terrorist groups has also been found to be an asylum seeker.

	10-04-2003 20:22									#38
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Oh, yeah you're right in regards to immigration.

I do remember a friend of mine saying we shouldn't allow aylum seekrs in because they could be terrorists, but to be honest there are always going to be sympathisers of radicals in any country - the only way to help prevent terrorism (beyond the usual precautions) is to not treat other countries so badly.

	10-04-2003 20:24									#39
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Cockney: Well, yes of cource. Bureaucracy can often if not always be done better. It's probably better for both the country and the asylum seeker if it is done in a fast and efficient way. As long as the ones refused in fact ends up in dire straits due to fawlts in the laws and regulation. Some preliminary research from Sweden about the effects of long times in limbo as a asylum seeker can have serious effects on the individual in his future life in his or her new country. Long times in some sort of camp leads to institutionalization just as it does for a criminal.

As for the demographic aspect. Most western European countries have a ageing population and sometimes also a declining population. It's not first and foremost the size of the population that's the problem but the relative size of the work force. An older population might imply a smaller workforce without a absolute decline in population.

There's a lot of other aspects to talk about when it comes to immigration. First and foremost the qualities not just the quantities of immigration. In the future we'll probably see a hardening struggle between countries and region to attract qualified labour.

	10-04-2003 20:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Oh, yeah you're right in regards to immigration. I do remember a friend of mine saying we shouldn't allow aylum seekrs in because they could be terrorists, but to be honest there are always going to be sympathisers of radicals in any country - the only way to help prevent terrorism (beyond the usual precautions) is to not treat other countries so badly.

well that's another thread entirely i would imagine

kropotkin, yes i think that research is not at all surprising. that's the thing about the current system, it's not good for genuine asylum seekers, it's not good for britain and it's certainly not good for british taxpayers, the only people it benefits are those who abuse it who can stay here for years and often don't get removed at all. if claims could be dealt with quickly then genuine asylum seekers could get on with rebuilding their lives without the effects of detention and those who are not refugees could be sent home without all the current fuss and nonsense that entails. sadly with the current government, that doesn't seem overly likely to happen.

yes i agree with you about the demographics and working populations, although those trends are not set in stone, as france is proving.

as to your last point, i couldn't agree more, that is why we need a proper system in britain to make that we can not only let, but attract those types of people that we need, and, equally, keep out those we don't.

	10-04-2003 21:08									#41
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Sadly enough a number of issues often hinders a rational allocation of the immigrant population. Those issues takes the form as simple and petty discrimination to problems for the actors on the labour market to value the education and knowledge of the foreigner in combination with language difficulties. It's probably not realistic in a modern economy to use all of their knowledge and education due to so called culturally specific human (or social) capital* but it seems that a lot could be done to improve this aspect.**

* I'm not a real fan of the human capital theory but the term is widely known.

** I mainly base this on Swedish experiences but i can't see why the general lines wouldn't hold for the british situation.

	10-04-2003 21:16									#42
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That's because asylum seekers are some of the most persecuted people by our gov't in the US.

Not really. I have a couple of friends who went through the process and, while long and a hassle, it isn't so bad. The recent changes for some asylum seekers don't preclude successful application at all.

	10-04-2003 21:23									#43
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Refugees are supposed to live in camps in horrible squalor. If they aren't, well then they're just cheating the system.

	10-04-2003 21:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Re asylum, this doesn't seem to be an issue over here. Maybe because it's so easy to be an illegal immigrant--no incentive to claim assylum.

It's an issue for INS. According to a episode of 60 Minutes I saw a few years ago, most asylum seekers here disappear once they get out of the airport. Apprarently at that time there were 100,000 unaccounted asylum seekers in the US (hardly a large number considernig the size of our population).

	10-04-2003 21:58									#45
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...or considering the size of your population of illegal immigrants (7 millions according to one estimate).

	10-04-2003 22:00									#46
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che: Yeh, but it's not like we have very many discussions about asylum. We have lots of discussions re immigration, but talk regarding asylum over here is only a small fraction of what they get in the UK.

As Krop points out, if you have 7 million illegal immigrants, and more than 1 million immigrants per year, 50k asylum seekers per year isn't going to hit your radar screen.

	10-04-2003 23:03									#47
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The typical rants of a leftie, with typically poor logic (ie - much more money is wasted elsewhere ). Also you have to bring sexuality into yet another thread you post in

I think both Asylum seekers and more so Illigal immigrants present us with problems, the worst is that many will claim benefits from us while actually working in cash-in-hand jobs. Other's are those not eligable to make claims and not employed who then have to resort to things such as stealing,begging ect.

The Main reason why the attitude is so bad towards them is the prefferential treatement some authorities are giving to them.

I live In Derby, some of you will remember some time back that while there are many GP's with thier books closed to new patients (believe me this problem is HUGE!) a brand new £600,000 clinic was created exclusively for Asylum seekers - people were disgusted by this, with normal people from all over the country demonstrating thier sympathy for the normal people of Derby via Newspapers/Web forums ect.

A More recent example is a post-office in Blackburn. A new queue has been set up exclusively for Asylum seekers to get benefits, normal Brits who have to queue for ages to get service have to watch an Asylum seeker walk in and get served immidiatly - And people Wonder why the BNP is getting votes in the North West!

I feel sorry for genuine Asylum seekers, because they are not the one's to blame ,and many of them have actualy pointed out they dont WANT to recieve such treatement as they know this will effect people's attitudes towards them. The British people need to realise who to blame this, it's not the Asylum seekers but the PC government and the damn lefties.

The Quicker we expose all lefties for what they are the quicker we all return to normality, and that people of all nationalities/race/religion can happily live alongside each other's. I think the answer to this problem may be in Education so that leftist values are faded out. Lefties are the desease of our nation , we need to treat it this way and kill the desease that is killing our country.

Cheers
Matt

	10-04-2003 23:23									#48
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Can you back up your asylum seeker scare stories with links, Rothy?

	10-04-2003 23:25									#49
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The typical rants of a rightie, with typically poor logic...




edit: Or in other words: We're trying to have a serious discussion here. Contribute to it or **** off!

	10-04-2003 23:44									#50
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Here's a Biased link from the BBC about the Derby one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2503135.stm

And the link for the other Story is the Daily Mail newspaper, Saterday April 5th , 2003 - page 10.


Kropotkin - Let's not make it personal now. Had you read i put accross many points relevant to the discussion, saying i do not blame Asylum seekers but the lefties who create systems which give the Asylum seekers a bad reputation.
Thatcher had the right idea with the lefties - Destroy thier impact by making sure they hold no posistion of power. Hitler's idea of sending them to Concentration camps was a bit extreme, as that only fuels thier cause. The Answer is a mix whereby there is no longer any credability to being left, and the views of the few lefties remaining are ignored,and censored more so than the BNP at present.

	10-04-2003 23:52									#51
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The discource of your first post makes it personal. Most of it is anecdotes at best and contributes with where little. Also, it deals with so called public opinion not so much anything else. The first part of it is in a long tradition of ideas about the effect of asylum seekers and immigrants that is usually found to be ambiguous when put to some serious investigations and with other variables put into it. If you have something like that to contribute that's fine. As it is now it's nothing more than opinions. You're personal confused crusade against the left is something really doesn't contribute with anything at all.

	11-04-2003 00:01									#52
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Yet I've Contributed two FACTS to the discussion, outlining thier favorable treatment in the UK.
I've also mentioned how Asylum seekers are not particulary keen to recieve such treatement as they want to be treat 'equal' (I can get quotes if you really want).

so therefore two things can be deduced

1. Asylum seekers are getting special treatement in some places, the latter being a BNP stronghold would hint that THIS is a source of the attitudes which people have towards Asylum seekers.

2. Since asylum seekers (in General, i'm sure they have thier left factions) are not particulary keen on recieving such treatment it can be deduced that the cause of number can be attributed towards those who put these systems in place, and those who put pressure on them to do so (ie - the left)

I could use the found causes for the Race riots in Bradford to get to the same points.

The Logical conclusion from the above arguments is that lefties, who's campaigns revolve around getting minority groups to be treat 'more equal' than others are causing the problems in Britain - the effect is these negative attitudes towards innocent suffering Asylum seekes. If you take away the problems, the effects will gradually diminish.

	11-04-2003 00:22									#53
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While I can agree that this is the better part of your first post I don't feel that two small case studies contributes with very much, and not enough for your conclutions in the end. I would surely not use the word "logical" in this context. To blame the left for attitudes towards refugees seems to be a bit unhistorical as these attitudes surely are much older than the left.

However a more interesting point to make is the change in your argumentations in the first and the last post. Suddenly asylum seekers stopped being a problem all together and all is the lefts fault. How come that in the first part of you first post "many will claim benefits from us while actually working in cash-in-hand jobs" but after a while you claim "asylum seekers (in General, i'm sure they have thier left factions) are not particulary keen on recieving such treatment". So on one hand they claim benefits that they shouldn't have and on the other hand they don't want special treatment.

	11-04-2003 00:28									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy The Main reason why the attitude is so bad towards them is the prefferential treatement some authorities are giving to them. I live In Derby, some of you will remember some time back that while there are many GP's with thier books closed to new patients (believe me this problem is HUGE!) a brand new £600,000 clinic was created exclusively for Asylum seekers - people were disgusted by this, with normal people from all over the country demonstrating thier sympathy for the normal people of Derby via Newspapers/Web forums ect.

Try thinking before posting. The rates of TB and other serious and communicable diseases is propotionally higher among refugees. This measure was taken in order to prevent Derby turning into a plague zone. Do you have a continuing problem with this, or do you fancy the idea of coughing up blood?

	11-04-2003 00:34									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy A More recent example is a post-office in Blackburn. A new queue has been set up exclusively for Asylum seekers to get benefits, normal Brits who have to queue for ages to get service have to watch an Asylum seeker walk in and get served immidiatly - And people Wonder why the BNP is getting votes in the North West!

The benefits received by Asylum Seekers differ radically from those received by other DSS claimants. There are also language barriers.

Have you considered that this queuing system may be an attempt to handle staff training issues within the post office, rather than being part of the Great Leftist Plot That Is Evil And Must Be Stopped Like What The Daily Mail Sez?

	11-04-2003 00:44									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Rothy Also you have to bring sexuality into yet another thread you post in

I had to read through the thread twice to find what you referred to here. It was one line, didn't mention Jon's own sexuality, and was entirely in context with the thread.

Is this some sort of obsessive thing? Do you spend your evenings on a game of "Hunt the Queers?"

	11-04-2003 00:48									#57
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As I see in your sig you're already found what he really think he's hunting...

	11-04-2003 00:51									#58
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quote: Here's a Biased link from the BBC about the Derby one

How's this biased? In any case, it's segregating the asylum seekers, albeit for acceptable reasons. Isn't that what you want?

If they're getting their own centre, then the pressure on conventional health services is reduced. Just what is the problem?

	11-04-2003 00:52									#59
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Kropotkin, I was reffering to Immigrants in that post more so than Asylum seekes (ie from Pakistan). And I'm not saying it's entirely Thier fault either, but that it's Simply a PROBLEM. The fact is , the systems in place (or perhaps the lack of) make Immigrating to England an attractive proposition. Many people would take a bit of extra money a week if it's easy to come accross despite the legalities of it, there are many English fiddling benefits/tax so it's not a abnormal behaviour - but nevertheless one that needs to be prevented. So are the businessmen who employ these illigal workers at fault?? possibly, but then again Cheap labour without having to pay tax might seem just irristable if you're the owner of a small business in a competative market.

We Need to STOP them getting here in the first place, and then make Asylum a quicker process. If they are allowed in great - let them become normal british citizens who can get on with thier lives no different to the rest of the folks here. If they are bogus then begone with them.

Lazarious , there are no known problems with desease in Derby afaik. If there were concerns then Asylum seekers can try WALKING out to a clinic further afield, like the REST of us with genuine medical problems have to. We, for some reason dont seem to have enough Doctors here, but we have a very fine A&E (Derbyshire Royal Infirmary, where Florence Nightingale used to work) and a big City Hospital. For serious problems such as TB there are suffient facilites here already without creating them thier own clinic. This was created by a labour council seeking votes in an highly ethnic community - In the short term they may suceed but in the long term it will backfire. Of course, I'm happy to listen to any stories you might have of Derbyshire people with the plaugue, that you'd be well aware of several hundred miles away.

	11-04-2003 00:55									#60
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Rothy... rothy.... and I think I saw somewhere you saying that you're christian orthodox.


which means you come from somwhere else unless there's a rebirth of the eastern church in Britain I'm unaware of.



whjy is it that people who come from elsewhere and are get to

ah forget it


condoliza rise (or how's it spelled)