09-04-2003 05:52									#1
	News from the (Gathering) Storm Front Increase the size of your Attachments

I was chatting with Shiber a few moments ago, computer talk, but I couldn't help trying to get some GS info on this whole Vox plot, so here's a copy of the PTWDG related conversation, hope it helps:

quote: [17:27] [MasterZen] BTW, what does the GS think of Vox's latest move? [17:30] [Shiber] sorry, been away [17:30] [Shiber] we haven't established an official stand on this matter, though i can say that we're not thrilled [17:31] [MasterZen] well imagine how we feel... [17:31] [Shiber] we're pissed off with vox most of the time because they don't let us know ahead about things that could affect us [17:31] [MasterZen] those little buggers just don't get it [17:31] [Shiber] e.g. when they allowed Lux to relocate to our continent [17:31] [MasterZen] they are rather unstable [17:31] [Shiber] yeah, diplomacy doesn't seem like their strong point [17:32] [Shiber] what do you think of this? [17:32] [MasterZen] well, first of all I'm afraid how many Immortals they might have landed or plan on landing (haven't seen the save) [17:33] [Shiber] i understand that GoW has no iron [17:33] [MasterZen] they are definitely planning on something big, they saw how diplomacy didn't work the first time [17:33] [Shiber] if we could only sell you ours... but we lack a harbor, and a visible route to your harbor [17:33] [MasterZen] all that "we come in peace, but in force" is just BS, there is no peaceful intention behind this [17:35] [Shiber] your team could certainly use pikemen [17:35] [Shiber] do you think that we can work out a combined deal for feudalism and iron? [17:35] [MasterZen] we'll see if we can send a galley, I'll talk to GF about this [17:36] [Shiber] i dunno if my teammates would like the idea [17:36] [Shiber] we'd rather keep galleys away from our shores, if possible [17:36] [MasterZen] well, other than trading maps how are we to get harbor contacts? [17:36] [Shiber] i suppose you feel the same [17:36] [MasterZen] let's see how this progresses [17:37] [Shiber] map trades: surely you wouldn't want to expose all your territory to us just so we could trade iron? [17:38] [Shiber] maybe we could buy a map from someone who has only charged your coasts up to one of your harbor cities [17:38] [MasterZen] of course not, that's why I said it was the only other (unreasonable) option [17:38] [Shiber] i dunno though [17:38] [Shiber] but in theory, would a deal that packaged feudalism and iron sound good to you? [17:39] [MasterZen] I'm not the one who decides on trade issues though... but I can bring it up [17:39] [Shiber] that would be nice [17:39] [Shiber] maybe i could send a note about this through the diplomatic channels [17:39] [Shiber] that'll have to wait for tomorrow, though [17:40] [Shiber] in the mean time, you could talk this through inside your team [17:40] [MasterZen] we'd need time to discuss it though, although the urgency of this whole thing means we are rather more involved now [17:40] [MasterZen] I will bring it up, trust me [17:41] [Shiber] i don't have confirmation from my team yet but i'm sure that we would agree to a price that's lower than usual, considering your situation (especially your defense situation against ND; you've told us already that you have to make a lot of upgrades in the near future) [17:41] [MasterZen] yep [17:41] [Shiber] anyway, any luck in finding iron overseas? [17:42] [MasterZen] I just hope ND isn't bluffing about acting "in the defense of Bob" and doesn't have a hidden agenda here either [17:42] [MasterZen] and RP for that matter... [17:42] [Shiber] RP could have signed some sort of a treaty with Vox [17:43] [Shiber] that is what i fear [17:43] [Shiber] re: iron: why won't RP sell you any? [17:43] [MasterZen] I'm not too informed on RP dealings, you know I'm kinda new to the team [17:43] [MasterZen] any diplomacy made before the first Vox invasion is pretty much alien to me [17:44] [Shiber] can you trade with lego for iron? [17:44] [MasterZen] hmm... dunno [17:44] [Shiber] or are you separated by sea tiles? [17:44] [MasterZen] I think we don't have trade with them...I think [17:44] [Shiber] bummer [17:44] [Shiber] and we won't be able to trade for some time either [17:45] [Shiber] looks like you're stuck without iron [17:45] [Shiber] is there anything else we can do to help? [17:45] [MasterZen] yeah, I'm not really the guy to talk to about trade deals, I'm not informed well enough yet [17:45] [MasterZen] loan us some WC? hahahaha [17:46] [Shiber] lol, if only we could gift units in Civ3 [17:46] [MasterZen] yeah, it sucks [17:46] [Shiber] that's one feature that they should have really put into PTW [17:46] [MasterZen] at least "loans" you know, give control of units to an allied team temporarily [17:47] [Shiber] do you know if your team is interested in buying Feudalism from GS? [17:47] [Shiber] we've offered you the same standard price that we've offered the rest of the world [17:47] [MasterZen] from what is being said probably [17:47] [Shiber] it's pretty low IIRC, only ~30% of the research cost [17:47] [MasterZen] we might end up needing it soon enough, how long till you get it? [17:48] [Shiber] are you gonna pay with cash or gpt? [17:48] [MasterZen] that I don't know [17:48] [Shiber] MasterZen, that really depends [17:48] [Shiber] the earlier we could get it is in either 3 or 2 turns; i'm not sure about our exact predictions as i'm not with the economists [17:48] [Shiber] however, we might have to delay it to save some cash for rushbuying a few improvements [17:49] [Shiber] and we'd burn through a lot of cash; if Vox suddenly decides to attack us, we won't have enough gold to upgrade units immediately [17:50] [MasterZen] 2-3 turns...we'll probably still be alive by then [17:50] [Shiber] of course, unless GoW would be willing to pay GS an additional sum if we could deliver it faster (say, in 2 or 3 turns), and then you'd also be the first to get Feudalism (you'd be several turns ahead of your competitors) [17:51] [MasterZen] I will let this be known ASAP in our private forum [17:51] [MasterZen] and I'm sure someone will get back to you guys soon [17:52] [MasterZen] VERY soon [17:52] [Shiber] please get back to me, as i'm the temporary appointed ambassador to your team [17:53] [Shiber] Zeit is going abroad for 20 days [17:53] [MasterZen] I'll post this right now, most of the team is around at night [17:53] [MasterZen] well, night for us you in Israel right? [17:53] [Shiber] cool, so you're a nocturnal bunch [17:53] [Shiber] yes, it's 1:56 AM atm [17:53] [MasterZen] well then it will be in your morning... [17:54] [MasterZen] who has handled foreign affairs from us? Panzer32? [17:55] [Shiber] mostly HotE [17:55] [MasterZen] oh ok [17:56] [MasterZen] good, because Panzer32 was going away for a while I think [17:58] [Shiber] you can send a copy to other members as well (e.g. DeepO) [17:59] [Shiber] if this needs to be discussed quickly, then you should, because i probably won't be up until 10 hours or so from now [17:59] [MasterZen] ok [18:00] [MasterZen] well, it's 6pm here, and I gotta go [18:00] [Shiber] alright [18:00] [MasterZen] nice talking to you Shiber [18:00] [Shiber] it's been really nice talking to you

	09-04-2003 06:54									#2
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He is lieing about Vox nt telling them in advance

quote: 17:55- BetaHound- We have already told GS we are going back - we also have a draft letter set to go asking Theseuas and DeepO for some tactical advice on how to conduct the war. 17:55- BetaHound 17:55- BetaHound- No - like ND and GoW are attacking Vox again - after we land for a second time. 17:56- GhengisFarb- I think GoW and Vox should go to war 17:57- BetaHound- Pigs!! Die!! 17:57- BetaHound- OK. 17:57- BetaHound- It is probably best. Would be the most convincing for GS. 17:57- Trip- switch the cities again ;P 17:57- GhengisFarb- No landing or anything, just declare war and tell everyone that you landed a settler and we killed it or something. 17:58- BetaHound- No - we have told GS we are going back in force.

	09-04-2003 07:27									#3
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how about feudalism for 20gpt if they allow us to scout a harbour route for them to give us gold? Say, only 12gpt max if they don't agree to the galley. That way, it reinforces our 'need' to get iron quickly.

BTW, if we are getting iron from ND, and the other civs have a trade route with us, they know we have iron from some source. Maybe, if we get a trade route to GS, we should make sure the ND Iron deal is not currently on, so we keep the pretenses of having no iron.

	09-04-2003 08:06									#4
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This is exactly what I have told them....

We have an iron resource, however its position makes it very vulnerable to an attack from ND.

They can take it from us at any time, and I was negotiating a backup source from them, that we could call upon if ND attacked.

Therefore, we do not need to fear them knowing that we have a source.



We should certainly suggest to them that we could trade...gpt for Fuedalism, and we will give them wine (renegotiated every 20 turns) for free passage around their continent and use of a backup Iron for 1 round when requied (ie it will be on call) (Just to show that we mean them no harm)

Tell them that our team has voted on the issue, and we are committed to sending our galleys around their continent looking for islands with iron (each will have a settler & a spearman). Tell them to check with Lego, and they will tell them the same thing..we have a galley circling their continent.

I know they claim that they do not have a harbour which makes the wine trades impossible, but I dont believe them...If it is true, tell them they can have the wine as soon as they have completed a harbour.

Tell them that the galley/s are on their way, and we would like to at least repay them in some way for allowing them through, via wine.

On this point...I still say we declare peace, and offer them the gold & wine each round that we are at war.

So the offer is.
?? gpt for fuedalism
Wine and free GS galley passage for allowing free GoW galley passage and iron on-call when needed.

Regs

	09-04-2003 08:24									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

They didn't say they didn't have a harbor, just that neither of our teams has a harbor city visible to the other.

	09-04-2003 09:33									#6
	Put an end to popups!

In chat sessions & corrspondence...

They are more than happy to provide "backup iron" if we provide monetary assitance to help them build a harbor.
They also wanted to be compensated for having to change their build queues to "insert" a habour.
They also wanted free passage for their galley to move up the coast to meet our harbour...but do not want our galleys to go south.

Obviously, we thought that they are asking a little too much...Plus I think they are lieing about not having a harbour.

I think a wine for iron backup trade is worthwhile exploring...coupled with free "exploration" of our galleys.

They will see it as getting wine from us for free, and if we tell them we are committed to sending down galley/s anyway..they may see it as getting something for nothing.

(Until of course, our horsemen disembark)

	09-04-2003 09:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel In chat sessions & corrspondence... They are more than happy to provide "backup iron" if we provide monetary assitance to help them build a harbor.

They need $$ for upgrading

quote: They also wanted to be compensated for having to change their build queues to "insert" a habour.

Dominae charging for his work?

quote: They also wanted free passage for their galley to move up the coast to meet our harbour...but do not want our galleys to go south.

Hell no! why should we concede this?

quote: Obviously, we thought that they are asking a little too much...Plus I think they are lieing about not having a harbour.

I think they are lying too. They need $$ so they're looking for any pretext.

	09-04-2003 18:11									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Possible PM to Shiber (currently on-line):

quote: You have said that you are close to feudalism. Might we work out a better deal for this so we can get one step closer to Chivalry and our riders to facilitate the destruction of Vox?

Please respond quickly so we can catch him on-line.

	09-04-2003 18:16									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Caught Shiber on line

quote: Session Start: Wed Apr 09 22:08:59 2003 [22:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Hey [22:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Anything interesting been happening ? [22:12] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am away from my keyboard for 20 minutes - will check in periodically [22:19] [Shiber] I am drafting a diplomatic message to you at the moment; I will get back to you shortly. If you wish to chat right now, please say so, as I'm always glad to engage in conversation with members of your team. [22:43] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I am back -- [22:44] [Shiber] Welcome back [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont have much to tell you [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] The Vox thing is badly timed [22:44] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have been discussing iron trade on the forum [22:44] [Shiber] Yes, it's such a shame; I understand that you were preparing to strike at ND. [22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Not that I am aware of ? [22:45] [Shiber] I trust that you have adequate forces to protect Port of Isolation, though. [22:45] [Shiber] Oh, then maybe I was fed with rumors... lol [22:45] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - We are not afraid of Vox - We have plenty of troops available [22:46] [Shiber] One of your members told me recently that you want to upgrade some troops along the ND border. [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] UPgrades yes [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Attack no ... not yet [22:46] [Shiber] Then I must have made the wrong conclusions [22:46] [Shiber] I've also been told that you fear that as soon as either team gets their UU, a war would break out [22:46] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But we always have war plans ... [22:46] [Shiber] Yes, you must justify your team's name! [22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Oh Yes- ND's UU is certainly worrying for us [22:47] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], there is something we should talk about. [22:47] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have nothing - Are you prepared for Vox ? [22:48] [Shiber] Some of my teammates have raised suspicions that Vox's 2nd invasion was just a ruse that was coordinated with your team. [22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Why would we do that ? [22:48] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I see no advantage in us doing that [22:48] [Shiber] I trust GoW, which proved to be very honest in the past, but I'm having a hard time convincing my teammates. [22:49] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], frankly, neither do I; but when war breaks out, people get paranoid. [22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Since ND changed leaders...I am no longer forwarded the sav...so I have not seen it [22:49] [Shiber] A screenshot of Vox's invasion force would surely alleviate our worries, though. [22:49] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But unless som eof our members are also lieing in our forums ???? [22:49] [Shiber] Please don't misinterpret this as an attempt to blackmail you for intelligence [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Nope thats ok - We are just better prepared for them this time [22:50] [Shiber] We just want reassurance. [22:50] [Shiber] That's good to hear!! [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Last time, they had a settler & a city [22:50] [Shiber] We were actually worried that Port of Isolation might return to Voxian hands [22:50] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That will never happen [22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That city, would allow them to transfer troops city to city, and attack on the same round [22:51] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Very dangerous [22:51] [Shiber] Can you please provide my team with a screenshot? [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I will see ... You know how GF feels about that [22:52] [Shiber] I fully understand [22:52] [Shiber] I don't expect a screenshot, but I don't expect to convince my teammates without one [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure - I will ask [22:52] [Shiber] Anyway, negotiations between ourselves can continue as usual. [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] That is excellent [22:52] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have been trying to get GoW to discuss an iron trade [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But war plans have got everyone excited [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And it got pushed aside [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And I have been RL busy [22:53] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], that's one of the things that could be affected by our suspicions. In the past few hours some have been saying that "we shouldn't give GoW anything", which I find appalling, but that's the reality I have to deal with. [22:53] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I need to clarify this ... [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] GoW, has iron [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But its position is easily overrun by ND if they wisg [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wish [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We want a back up supply only [22:54] [Shiber] Oh, I've forgot that you've already told us that. [22:54] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We dont trust ND [22:55] [Shiber] Yes, we can certainly be your back-up source, at least as far as I'm concerned. [22:55] [Shiber] We just have to keep a good relationship going on [22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent...I posted my suggestions today on our forum....but no one has said yay or nay [22:55] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] No probs ... Can you handle Vox [22:57] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] And the Fuedalsim trade ... GF has been handling that...I think we are going to offer you gpt...We need the cash for upgrades [22:58] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], we are more than prepared. [22:58] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We have no plans on invading Vox...our horsemen would be slaughtered [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But if you need any help ... just say [22:59] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Vox is not our best friend at the moment [23:00] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] We kinda screwed them on the port isolation deal [23:00] [Shiber] lol [23:00] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], is GoW researching anything at the moment? [23:01] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I dont think so.... We need to upgrade...and I think we are going to buy Fuedalism from you [23:01] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], then you must be making a lot of gold from your income if science is set to zero. [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I should really check before I say these thingsd [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Our forum is not that well organised [23:02] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I used to just check the sav ... but I cant now [23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] If GS gets wiped out... We could use some of your teammates [23:03] [Shiber] lol [23:03] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Master Zen & Calc have been good ... We needed new blood [23:05] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Is there anything else you need to bring up ... I will look into getting you a pic .. [23:06] [Shiber] There's a draft for an interesting diplomatic message in the GS forums. I hope I could send it shortly [23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sending to who ? [23:06] [Shiber] to you, silly [23:06] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I am in bed in about 1 hour .. will I get it before then ? [23:07] [Shiber] btw, I've been thinking: if we could provide you with Feudalism in a matter of turns (2 or 3) and promise to give you an exclusivity of 5 or 6 or so turns before we would sell it to anyone else (means that you'll be the first to get it for a long duration of time, since we're the only ones researching it), you could hoard gold for several more turns and you'd be able to pay us in cash [23:07] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], I definitely hope so. [23:07] [Shiber] In any case, I'll CC it to GhengisFarb. [23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Excellent Idea .. I am sure we will discuss it .. CC to GF is wise [23:08] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] I have a quick question .. Have you been able to build a harbor ? [23:08] [Shiber] it's been on our build list, but now that Vox have declared war, things may change [23:08] [Shiber] it's very upsetting, really [23:09] [Shiber] but maybe we could find the cash to rush it [23:09] [Shiber] we'd hate to see you get stuck without iron while we are still not prepared to trade [23:09] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] You must be cashed up .. Ok the harbor thing is is a problem .. I know about that [23:10] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] My team dont really want to pay you to build one .. But we will see what happens [23:10] [Shiber] not really, we'll be short on cash, what with the upgrades and all, unless we cease research for a while [23:10] [Shiber] more info in the diplomatic message [23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Sure .. I understand... I have been pushing for a wine trade for you...as payment for a harbor & iron backup [23:11] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] But as I say..The team has been excited about taking on Vox..so it has not gotten a lot of response [23:13] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - I am heading off - Anything else ? [23:14] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Good Luck with Vox .. Let us know if you need help .. [23:15] [Shiber] Hot_Enamel[GoW], what was that about wine? [23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] wine for Iron backup maybe......as part of the deal [23:16] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] It is my recommendation only...definately not approved yet [23:17] [Shiber] You mean a constant supply of wine in exchange for our expenditures on the harbor, and we'd be obliged to provide you with iron should you lose your source? [23:17] [Shiber] That could work. [23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Yep - something like that [23:17] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] OK - Thats good to know that you are interested...I will push the idea [23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Well - I got to go - will catch up with you later [23:19] [Shiber] Alright, cya Hot_Enamel[GoW]! [23:19] [Hot_Enamel[GoW]] Bye Session Close: Wed Apr 09 23:19:55 2003

1. They know that the war was fake. Someone spilled the beans for sure. Either ND or RP (most likely)
Bastards

2. We must make every effort to calm their fears that we are aggressive
I strongly suggest that we offer ...
Constant supply of wine for Iron Backup. (They will accept the wine as "payment" for their harbor build)
I think they do have a harbor...and we just continue with our galleys down their west coast...looking for their harbor.
We claim the galleys include spears & settlers...looking for islands with iron....
We come in peace and tell them to ask lego..we are peacefully circling their continent as well.

3. There is always the chance, that the Vox/GS war is fake, and we have been screwed. GS & Vox are waiting for us to send over our Horsemen, and then attack us. Not a bad idea...but IMO..unlikely.

	09-04-2003 18:36									#10
	Got spare money?

I thought we were trying to convince everyone that ND and GoW were constantly on the verge of war so that no one would guess we were allies.

Did we change this policy?

	09-04-2003 18:40									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Policy has not changed -
But they also expect us to keep war secrets ...secret.

Always play the defensive only role...no one likes an overly aggresive team.

But drop hints that we are going to kill them every now and again.

	09-04-2003 18:45									#12
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Donegeal...

I believe they would rather we stay out of the fight.
Unless the Vox immortals do serious damage, they will want to try and take the full continent for themselves.

Its definately worth offering...but they wont want our help.

We are better off playing the peaceful team..offering them wines etc etc and attacking them from behind.

Regs

	09-04-2003 22:17									#13
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I sent a quick PM to Beta and MJMacy just telling them how much I am enjoying this play out and that GS suspects that we are in league with them. This is what I got from Beta:

quote: Yes - it is a riot - isn't it. And I still think that GS has no clue as to the international situation. They may suspect GoW and Vox being in on this - but they are still smug in their superiority. Which is great. btw - no one from our end talked. There are a lot of people 'in the know' now, and besides - they may have put 2 and 2 together. We are continuing to play the lunatic fringe role - anything to get them to under-react in the slightest. I see your galley is on its way. GS territory is only two moves away for you. If you are trying to angle a way to get feudalism - play it carefully. Keep the rhetoric up. And don't do anything aggressive for a couple of turns. And please please please do not pay a whole lot for it. That is money we wil be fighting on the ground. We established an embassy with GS the turn before. They only have one iron and one supply of horses - unless they have more and just have not connected it. As the two sources of iron we know about are cenrally located on the landmass - we figure their's may be as well. If we get that - they are really behind the 8-ball. It is chariots which concern us now - so if you see the horses - please take it out. Cheers! And to victory! I love this game. ...BetaHound - aka Beta the Bold, Immortal in General Jon's 1st Voxian Army. quote: donegeal wrote on 09-04-2003 12:38: Man this is so much fun watching this unfold!!! I was susposed to be in bed hours ago but I can't sleep! No matter how this turns out, it has been MUCH more fun than any SPDG could ever be! BTW, apperently someone has droped the ball.... There are some people on GS who believe that Vox and GoW are in league together on this...

It seems that GS only has one sourse of Iron...
It seems that we might want to go after horse tiles instead...
It seems that very quickly, any deal with GS is going out the door, we might want to talk to ND about our tech "Sharing" idea...(psst! That means we get it from them for 100 gold!!!!)

	10-04-2003 00:31									#14
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Any bets GS will start disbanding cities?

They'll probably be too smug to admit they might not have a chance of getting them back.

	10-04-2003 10:48									#15
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Have you guys read this?

quote: Frankly, I am less than impressed at grievances over a tech trade imbalance when it is unclear what accommodation might have been reached had you not declared war on us. The fact that we were unwilling to maintain a highly asymmetric relationship indefinitely in no way implies that we would have refused to take your concerns into consideration at all. Now we'll never be sure what might have happened under other circumstances. Bringing Lux onto our continent was done without our consent, and we regarded it both as a diplomatic risk and as at least a small potential military risk. Had Lux pop rushed a defender and tried to dig in, we could have incurred some expense in dislodging them. Having risks imposed on us without compensation would have been unacceptable, and the obvious solution would have been to eliminate the risk by eliminating Lux. Regarding where the borders were drawn, our two teams' expansion has borne out our contention that the treaty was a fair representation of the two teams' REXing power. Indeed, we are closer to finished settling our side of the border than you are to finished settling your side (and not just because you used a settler on Bob). And I might add that your lands that we had not seen at the time of the negotiations seem to be both significantly larger and more fertile than you led us to believe. Regarding Grog, the only reason he was on the "wrong" side of one of your cities is that you founded a city ridiculously far from your core. Even today, a unit would have to cross four tiles not in anyone's cultural borders to get from your nearest other city to Dissidentville. Further, Grog was ten tiles from your capital, while you had your closest picket within seven tiles of ours. And Dissidentville itself is a mere nine tiles from our capital, but thirteen from yours, which would have been a highly advantageous military situation for you if we did not have a picket watching the road to it. As far as I'm concerned, the idea that we should have given up our ability to see an invasion in advance just because you settled a city far beyond the rest of your empire and closer to our capital than to yours was ridiculous. And I think your current invasion provides proof positive of the wisdom of our wanting an advance picket there to provide warning of impending attack. (And here I'd thought for all these centuries that we were probably being a bit paranoid.) And finally, regarding your efforts to settle on Bob, both GoW and ND have cities twice as close to where you settled as any of ours are, and they don't have to cross water to get there. Even if we had decided that the rewards were worth a game of brinksmanship with civilizations we were trying to build positive relationships with, about all our units could have accomplished in the current time frame if it came down to war would have been to get themselves killed. I won't claim that Gathering Storm has always been the nicest neighbor that could be asked for. We've known from the time our two civs met that we had more economic power than Vox, and thus more latent military power should we need it, and that has caused or allowed us to act in a bit more high-handed manner than we might have otherwise at times. But we did try to take Vox's needs and feelings into consideration as well and to come up with solutions we felt were fair to both sides rather than trying to insist on getting everything completely our way. Indeed, the fact that we don't have the forces to crush Vox like a bug right now is testimony to our early hopes for peace and mutal prosperity, and to our choice to focus on economic rather than military priorities. Nathan

Either that was the most stupid way of giving away vital info or they are LYING.

	10-04-2003 18:50									#16
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And also from Shiber on the main forum..

quote: A question to all of Vox: why did you keep lying to us, saying that much of the land that you have had north of the isthmus was desert, when in fact there's only one tile of desert there, and about half of the rest is grasslands, hills and a mountain? Weren't you also trying to achieve an advantage during the distribution of land, pretending to be the underdog, while you actually had a better start location than ours?

Plus they also quoted cities distances etc etc elsewhere.

Did Vox give their map to GS ?? I dont think so.
They gave it to us...we gave it to ND & RP.

Also...GS know that we had a fake war...this must of come from ND or RP as well.

Either ND or RP is in bed with GS...And I think it is RP.

And it's my guess...RP is trying to align themselves with Lego as well.

Seems about right.... 1 continent each
Lego / RP / GS

	10-04-2003 18:58									#17
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My money is on ND if anyone. Sir Ralph joined the ND team for the ISDG and is on GS. ND has never said anything about committing troops to the GS situation but RP has often talked about working out something to slow GS's power growth.

	10-04-2003 19:08									#18
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And ND did give our maps to Lego as well

	10-04-2003 19:47									#19
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Well, evil scheming has reached new highs (or lows? )

I think we shouldn't be too paranoid but definitely be cautious. And the most important thing: don't trust anybody.

I am wondering if we should share these fears with ND, it's better to be backed by a trustworthy ally in moments like this

	10-04-2003 19:49									#20
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BTW, it occurred to me that GS knew the details of Vox's capital if they had established an embassy. They'd know the distance to it and the surrounding terrain and as we know it is grassland/plain around it.