09-04-2003 23:25									#1
	Some Mod Ideas Support Apolyton

Here are some ideas for mods. Since I don't have any fancy graphics program, there's no way I can make graphics for any of these, though.

But, if I do somehow get a better graphics program, I might try to make this mod.

A new concept - "Edicts":
"Edicts" have the same function as improvements or small wonders, but the difference is that they are "invisible" (meaning they don't appear on the city view ). They are to represent certain laws or government programs.

Governments:
*Each government has their own unique buildings or "edicts" ("laws", which are quite simply invisible improvements) they can build.

Notes, some governments have duplicate stats, but are differentiated by the unique buildings and edicts they offer. For example, Representative Democracy and Democratic Socialism are quite similar with their relatively high production, high war weariness, and low corruption, but both offer different unique edicts and improvements. Monarchy and Theocracy also bear similarities, but again, they differ due to their unique buildings/edicts.

Each unique building/edict has a bonus and a downside.

Despotism
Advantage: No real advantages
Disadvantage: The worst government to be in
Unique Building/Edicts:
None

Monarchy
Advantage - Strong military, better than despotism
Disadvantage - Relatively low research cap, lots of corruption
Unique Building/Edicts:
Building - "Provincial Palace" - Reduces corruption and war weariness

Bureaucratic Monarchy (the system of Imperial China)
Advantage - Produces more wealth and luxuries than a regular Monarchy, a step higher than Monarchy
Disadvantage - Still has lots of corruption and no tile bonuses, research cap is still the same as Monarchy
Unique Building/Edicts:
Edict - "Peasant Conscription": Increases production, but reduces happiness
Edict - "Foreign Trade": Increases wealth and luxuries
Building - "City Palace": Reduces corruption

Republic
Advantage: Happier people, better economy, and less corruption than Monarchy
Disadvantage: No free units, still has a bit of a corruption problem
Unique Buildings/Edicts:
Building - "Forum": Increases happiness and reduces corruption

Theocracy
Advantage - Higher happiness, high conscription rate, and more free units
Disadvantage - High corruption and low research rate
Unique Buildings/Edicts:
Edict - "State Religion": Increases happiness, requires a cathedral, but costs a lot to maintain due to strict enforcement of this edict
Small Wonder - "Great Temple": Increases happiness and contributes a lot to culture points

Constitutional Monarchy
Unique Buildings/Edicts:
Edict - "Parliamentary Elections": Increases happiness and reduces corruption, but costs a lot to maintain; requires "Parliamentary System" tech

Representative Democracy
Advantage- Higher productiveness, wealth, and research
Disadvantage - Highly polluting, high war weariness, no free units
Unique Buidlings/Edicts:
Edict - "Corporate Lobbying": Increases wealth and luxuries, costs little to maintain, but increases pollution and causes some unhappiness ( )
Edict - "Free Market Trade": Increases wealth and production
Building - "State Capitol": works like an additional courthouse; requires courthouse and "Constitution" tech
Edict - "Corporate Contract": Increases research, but has a cost

Bolshevism
Advantage - Higher production, powerful military, "Personality Cult"!
Disadvantage - Lower happiness, more polluting
Unique Building/Edicts:
Building - "State Factory": Increases production, but heaby pollution
Edict - "Stalinism": Increases production, but reduces happiness; requires "Stalinism" tech
Small Wonder - "Stalinist Personality Cult" : Similar to the one for Maoism, but is not as effective and it increases production slightly

Fascism
Unique Building/Edicts:
Edict - "Secret Police": Reduces corruption but makes people unhappy

Maoism
Advantage - Higher production, strong military, unlike Bolshevism it can create a strong economy, last but not least-"Cult of Personality"!
Disadvantage - Lots of corruption, lower happiness

Unique Buildings/Edicts:
Building - "Re-education Work Camp": Increases production, but reduces happiness; requires "Maoist Thought" tech
Edict - "Economic Reform": Increases shield production by 1, allows "Special Economic Zone", but increases pollution
Building - "Special Economic Zone": Increases wealth and luxuries, but reduces happiness (since there is some resentment towards foreign companies and corrupt government officials that profit from them); requires "Economic Reform" edict
Small Wonder - "Cult of Personality" ( ): Increases happiness in all cities; This is more of a twisted joke and criticism of Maoism

Democratic Socialism
Advantage - Social programs increase happiness, production, and research, has the tile bonus that "Democracy" has, good worker rate
Disadvantage - You had better have lots of pocket change for this
Unique Building/Edicts:
Edict/Small Wonder - "Proportional Representation": Increases happiness and culture (since minorities have more representation), but costs much to maintain
Edict - "Worker's Rights": Increases happiness and production, but costs much to maintain; requires "Labor Unions" tech
Edict - "Free Health Care": Increases happiness and production, but costs much to maintain
Edict - "Free Education": Increases research, but quite expensive to maintain

Technocracy
Advantage: Faster research, good production, and the only government system where you can have research at 100% (*the max for Representative Democarcy and Democratic Socialism should be set at 70% for balancing issues)
Disadvantage: High war weariness, suffers from more corruption than Representative Democracy or Democratic Socialism since it lacks the edicts or government-specific buildings to reduce corruption further

Unique Units:
*The Unique Units are from times when these nations were very powerful. For example, the Germanic peoples were quite strong during the Middle Ages, thus they have the "Teutonic Knight" UU. Germany was also very powerful in World War II, thus the "Focke-Wulf 190A-8" fighter, which appears at the same time of the Panzer tank to reflect Germany's status as a world power at that time. The Mongol Empire was also a powerhouse in the times around the 13th century (which technically is still the "Middle Ages"), thus they have very powerful medieval UUs.

Arabia
Camel Rider (replaces horseman)
Scimitar Swordsman (replaces medieval infantry)

China
Chu-ko-nu (replaces longbowman)
Tongkang (replaces frigate)

Japan
Ashigaru (replaces spearman)
ZERO Fighter (replaces fighter)

England
British Regular (replaces musketman)
Royal Marine (replaces marine)

America
B-52 Stratofortress (replaces bomber)
M1A1 Abrams Tank (replaces modern armor)

Russia
Red Army Infantry (replaces infantry)
IS3 Tank (replaces tank)

Korea
Hwarang (replaces longbowman)
Kobukson "Turtle Ship" (replaces frigate)

Aztecs
Atl-atl Slinger (new unit for Ancient Age)
Eagle Warrior (replaces warrior)
*Jaguar Warrior now replaces swordsman

Persians
Parthian Horse Archer (replaces horseman)
Sassanid Elephant (replaces knight)

Egyptians
Bireme (replaces galley)
Mameluke (replaces knight)

Germany
Teutonic Knight (replaces knight)
Focke-Wulf 190A-8 (replaces fighter)

Iroquois
Iroquois Scout (replaces scout, but scout can defend itself)
Native American Guerilla (replaces guerilla and has significant terrain bonus)

Mongolia
Nomad (settler with defense ability and 2 movement)
Mangudai (new unit; all terrain as roads advantage)

Scandanavia
Huskarl (replaces swordsman)
Viking Longboat (replaces caravel)

Spanish
Spanish Galleon (replaces galleon)

Other additions I'll add to are UUs, other additional techs and improvements, wonders, and graphics for each culture group.

Last edited by Azeem on 17-04-2003 at 03:54

	10-04-2003 01:26									#2
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quote: Representative Democracy and Democratic Socialism are quite similar with their relatively high production, high war weariness, and low corruption,

Democratic socialism should have low production and huge corruption...I know, because I live in Sweden..

And where´s fascism????

Seems ok besides that...but a little to many commie govs though, need all them?

	10-04-2003 03:34									#3
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Thank's for the reminder on Fascism.

BTW, you haven't seen corruption until you come down here to Southern California.

I'm a democratic socialist myself so I'm admittedly more generous to it. So the way I make my own mods is to seperate "socialist systems" into Bolshevism, Maoism, and Democratic Socialism even though that division is sitll too general. Several of the mods I've seen think democratic socialism is a mix of the so-called "communism" (which is renamed "Bolshevism" since "communism" never truly existed) and democracy, which is not neccessarily true.

Anyway, on Fascism what sort of unique buildings/edicts should it have?

Are there any other governments that should be included?

Last edited by Azeem on 10-04-2003 at 03:58

	10-04-2003 18:01									#4
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quote: BTW, you haven't seen corruption until you come down here to Southern California.

Been to Sweden??

quote: I'm a democratic socialist myself so I'm admittedly more generous to it.

Well if you´ve lived your entire life in a SD ruled country it´s hard to still believe in it.....

Uhm...got no ideas at all for the fascism...sorry...

I´d like to see technocracy....

	10-04-2003 20:32									#5
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What's a technocracy?

	10-04-2003 22:05									#6
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A technocracy is a society (goverment) where the scientists dominate...the scientists (or engineeers, whatever) rule the country and the main goal for all citizen is technological advancement.
Something like that...

	15-04-2003 04:22									#7
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*continuation of the ideas list.

*Added Concept: Tourism
In the modern era, more nations are supplementing their economies with a tourist industry. Thus tourism is increasingly becoming more important in expanding economic growth.

Bonus Resources:

Scenic Site - +3 Gold; allows the construction of a "Tourist Accomodations" improvement
Ancient Ruins - +3 Gold; allows the construction of a "Museum"
Fruits - +1 Food, +1 Gold
Oasis - +2 Food, +1 Shield

Luxury Resources:

Herbs - +1 Food, +1 Gold
Lacquer - +1 Shield, +2 Gold
Tobacco - +1 Shield, +2 Gold

Improvements:

Workers' Guilds - increases shield production
Tourist Accomodations - +50% Tax and luxury output, requires a "Scenic Site" and the "Tourism" advance; costs 3 gold per turn
Museum - +1 Happiness (due to cultural pride ), +4 Culture, +50% research; costs 6 gold per turn
City Park - +1 Happiness, +1 Culture, reduces population pollution; costs 1 gold per turn
Television Station - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture, Increases Luxury Trade; costs 4 gold per turn

Wonders:
*Some of these just replace wonders already in PtW. I don't like the way PtW is still too Euro- and America-centric (if that's really a word ).

Pyramids - adds a Workers' Guilds improvement in every city
Stonehenge - all cities gain a granary (it was speculated that Stonehenge may have been used as an agricultural calendar)
Holy City - doubles effects of all Cathedrals (replaces Sistine Chapel), +5 culture per turn
House of Wisdom - doubles research of city

New Units:

Land Rover - upgrades from Cavalry
Humvee - upgrades from Land Rover

Last edited by Azeem on 06-05-2003 at 04:38

	15-04-2003 06:26									#8
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Hey, how are you thinking about implementing the 'edicts'? Just as improvements without associated graphics? That's actually not a bad idea, although it would be strange to be able to sell 'peasant conscription' or 'corporate lobbying'.

I also like the tourism ideas, though you might want to bump them up a bit. One gold really won't matter much in any but the smallest cities, early in the game. Tourism contributes a surprising amount to many modern economies.

And another thing you might want to consider for your Luxury resrouces is what I've done in my Colonization mod at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=81893.
Tobacco, for example, adds trade bonuses but subtracts from food, because it tends to be farmed instead of corn, wheat, or whatever.

As for Technocracy, you'd probably want high science and low corrpution, with moderate trade and high war weariness. And it's too bad you can't disable religious improvements with a government type. I wonder if technocracy is meant to be democratic or sort of a meritocracy? Do you vote for the best political scientists or is the president elected by a nation SAT?

	15-04-2003 07:29									#9
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I bumped up the values for tourism a bit.

As for edicts, they are "invisible improvements", which is quite simply improvements without associated graphics.

Right now these are all merely suggestions. I'd very much like to make a mod like this. But the problem is that I don't have the right graphics programs to make the graphics and the icons.

	15-04-2003 08:44									#10
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quote: A technocracy is a society (goverment) where the scientists dominate...the scientists (or engineeers, whatever) rule the country and the main goal for all citizen is technological advancement.

Technocrats are people involved in politics that push for rapid technological progress. This means that countries involved in rapid modernization, arms races, etc. are technocracies to a great extent. Many of the Soviet cadres are described as "technocrats," and many active American scientists describe themselves in this way.

I don't think that technocracy is really worth a government, instead it's more like a condition that a government can be in (like a small wonder maybe?). Technocracy is already pretty accurately simulated by setting your science slider as far to the right as you dare

	15-04-2003 17:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Thirgaral Been to Sweden?? (...)

Been to Canada???

	15-04-2003 21:04									#12
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How about you two come down here to the ol' US of A and be awed by our corruption?

Anyway, what unique units should Scandanavia and Spain have?

	15-04-2003 21:59									#13
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About the fascism...I think it should have low waste??

quote: Technocrats are people involved in politics that push for rapid technological progress. This means that countries involved in rapid modernization, arms races, etc. are technocracies to a great extent. Many of the Soviet cadres are described as "technocrats," and many active American scientists describe themselves in this way.

However...even though we have´t seen it in the real world, it´s possible to create a government of technocracy working something like this:

quote: As for Technocracy, you'd probably want high science and low corrpution, with moderate trade and high war weariness. And it's too bad you can't disable religious improvements with a government type. I wonder if technocracy is meant to be democratic or sort of a meritocracy? Do you vote for the best political scientists or is the president elected by a nation SAT?

And replying to that: it´s a meritocracy...i think...
the other question´s answer could vary as much as between the democracies of today...but I believe that option nr 2 would be more usual??

quote: Been to Canada???

No.

quote: How about you two come down here to the ol' US of A and be awed by our corruption?

Sure, if you come up here too.

quote: Anyway, what unique units should Scandanavia and Spain have?

Scandinavia should have the modern unit "beautiful woman" which makes the opponents troops switch side

Spain could have the "Columbus boat"...simply an explorer on sea...
and the "Colonist"...used to make colonies in some more efficient way...

	15-04-2003 23:47									#14
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quote: However...even though we have´t seen it in the real world, it´s possible to create a government of technocracy working something like this

We've seen technocracies, USSR and USA come to mind. In fact the USSR was the technocracy of technocracies, it was a theocracy of technology

So yeah, a technocracy would be a meritocracy but both terms refer to conditions that are not necessarily worth a government but maybe a small wonder.

	16-04-2003 06:38									#15
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*More added.

New Techs:
*Added Concept: Religion
Various religions can be "researched", but are not necessary to advance to the next age. You only need to have "Polytheism" researched for the Ancient Age and "Monotheism" for the modern age. These "religion" advances are to add more character to your civilization and some bonuses. All religions either require the "Monotheism" or "Polytheism" techs as prerequisite. Each religion will give you something unique. Each religion has a research path, so if you want to research a particular religion and gain their benefits, it's better to choose one first and follow its research path.

Monotheism
Research path: Monotheism -> Judaism -> Christianity -> Roman Catholicism -> Protestant Reformation
or Christianity -> Eastern Orthodox -> Coptic Church

-OR-

Monotheism -> Judaism -> Islam -> Muslim Rituals -> Sunni -> Shi'a -> Shariah -> Sufi -> Sufi Literature

Polytheism
Research path: Polytheism -> Vedic Traditions -> Caste System -> Hinduism -> Upanishads -> Hindu Literature -> Hindu Philosophy

or Hinduism -> Buddhism -> Theravada -> Buddhist Rituals -> Mahayana -> Vajrayana

-OR-
Polytheism -> Animism -> Shamanism

-OR-
Polytheism -> Temple Cults -> Elaborate Temple Rituals -> Popular Religion (such as the widely accepted polytheistic religions of China and ancient Egypt)

-OR-
Polytheism -> Ancestor Worship -> Filial Piety -> Confucianism -> Daoism -> Feng Shui

*Some of these religions have really long research lines, but each have their own unique benefits to balance things out.

Last edited by Azeem on 06-05-2003 at 04:40

	16-04-2003 17:03									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem (...)B]Monotheism[/B] Research path: Monotheism -> Judaism -> Christianity -> Roman Catholicism -> Protestant Reformation or Christianity -> Eastern Orthodox -> Coptic Church(...)

where's the Mormons?

	16-04-2003 20:40									#17
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quote: We've seen technocracies, USSR and USA come to mind. In fact the USSR was the technocracy of technocracies, it was a theocracy of technology

I don´t agree...although they pretty much worked as a technocracy would have done, they never were real technocracies. At least they should have announced themselves as technocracies...

And I mean the version that needs a gov....

	29-04-2003 04:44									#18
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*More to the list.

New Civs:

Mayans
*Mayans have the unique advantage of having 2 UUs early on
Leader: Pacal
Traits: Religious, Scientific
UU: Plumed Clubman (replaces warrior), Balamob Slingers (new unit; weak but cheap and has 2 movement), Plumed Javelin Thrower (replaces swordsman; has ranged attack ability)

Nubians
Leader: Taharqa
Traits: Militaristic, Expansionist
UU: Nubian Archer (replaces archer), Archer of the Eyes (replaces longbowman), Nubian Camel Raider (replaces knight)

Last edited by Azeem on 08-05-2003 at 04:51

	03-05-2003 17:38									#19
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sounds good

	06-05-2003 04:37									#20
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*Continuation of the list.

Added Concept: Religion-Specific Improvements and Wonders
Since each religion has its own long "Research path" and you really only need Polytheism and Monotheism for advancing through the ages, you can ignore researching "religion" advances altogether. Or you could choose a certain religion and focus on it. Each religion gives its own bonuses in the form of improvements and wonders. Some sects of certain religions are accessible by going further down the research path, but since they are further down and require more research, there is a choice to acquire them or not.

Improvements:
Mosque - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires "Muslim Rituals" advance
Buddhist Temple - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires "Buddhist Rituals" advance
Catholic Church - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires "Roman Catholicism" advance
Eastern Orthodox Church - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture
Protestant Church - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture
Synagogue - +2 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires the "Judaism" advance
Daoist Temple - +1 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires "Daoism" advance
Ancestral Shrine - +1 Happiness, +3 Culture; requires "Ancestor Worship" advance
City Temple - +1 Happiness, +4 Culture; requires "Temple Cults" advance
Shrine - +1 Happiness, +1 Culture; requires "Popular Religion" advance

Wonders:
Borobudur Temple - Increases the happiness of all Buddhist Temples; requires 8 Buddhist Temples and "Theravada" advance

Last edited by Azeem on 06-05-2003 at 04:47

	15-05-2003 20:24									#21
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Hmm... Still can't think of any more UUs for the Scandanavians... Anyway, I'll try to think of more improvements and techs.

	22-05-2003 11:25									#22
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Hi Azeeem,

I really like your edict ideas. They bear some similarity to my ideas for government specific buildings etc. The big problem I'm having, as you have also probably discovered, is building Small Wonders which count as a building in every city!!!
For instance, I wanted to have a Senate Small Wonder, which you build in your capital. It would count as "Senate representation" in every city, which would act to reduce corruption and increase happiness! Only problem is, can't be done, 'cause that flag is not available for small WONDERS!!! I only hope they change this with the upcoming conquests game!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	28-05-2003 11:20									#23
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Thanks for your comments.

I've thought of some techs to add to the list besides the "religion advances".

Advances and Modifications of Units and Techs:
*Magnetism allows the construction of ONLY the Galleon (which has added movement to reflect the age of exploration) and Tongkang (Chinese UU, the Chinese "junk" and the ship used by the famous Chinese explorer Zheng He)
Though the Chinese have had their famous junks for quite a while, it was during the Ming Dynasty (which flourished at the time of the Reniassance and Age of Exploration in Europe), under the leadership of the famed Admiral Zheng He, that the junks were used for exploration of the seas and were some of the finest ships in the world during those times.

Naval Warfare Tactics - Required for building Frigates, Kobukson (Korean UU, which replaces the Frigate and has a +1 Defense advantage to reflect their defensive usage to repel the Japanese naval invasion)

	28-05-2003 11:30									#24
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Actually, Azeem, while of got you here , I had some ideas a while back about religion which, in my opinion, could enhance the game!! Basically, move monotheism back to the Ancient era, and make it a non-essential tech (remember that Judaism is monotheistic, and it's much older than the Middle Ages) have it's prerequisites as either polytheism and code of laws, or Philosophy and Code of Laws?? Which do YOU think?
Anyway, also have a second religion type which derives from the prerequisites of Philosophy and Polytheism, or Philosophy and Ceremonial Burial, and call it Eastern Religion (or Eastern Philosophy) That way, you have the two divergent forms of religion (monotheistic, "Western" faiths, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam and Eastern "Religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism and the like) In the middle ages, you'd have Theology, as normal, and that splits of into the "Techs" of Iconoclasm and Orthodoxy, to represent yet more recent divisions in the major religions. All of them would NOT be prerequisite techs, meaning all the different Civs could have VERY different religious backgrounds!!
Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	30-05-2003 19:28									#25
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Fantastic ideas about edicts, there. I like them!

Indeed, I have been tinkering with a parallel idea recently for my scenario, which is international organisations and edicts of a sort, represented by wonders and small wonders. A wonder could be, for example, the European Central Bank, which can be built only in Europe (another building type, for identification purposes, labels regional status) and only after EEC membership, EU membership and single currency membership small wonders are built in turn. Each takes a certain amount of maintenance, representing the 'cost' of being in that organisation.

I have toyed with the idea of edicts of a form as well, to represent industrial and economic improvement programs for France, Japan and Germany, recovering after World War 2.

Very good stuff of yours there. I like!

	22-06-2003 00:19									#26
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Forget about having actual religions represented in the game - that could easily offend some people.

How about having it more abstract?

Why don't we try this as the tech tree for Polytheism:

Animism -> Spirit Worship (Gives "Shrine" improvement, which increases hapiness) -> Polytheism

Polytheism then branches out:

Polytheism -> Ancestor Cults -> Ancestor Worship (Gives "Ancestral Temple" improvement, which increases happiness) -> Filial Piety (Gives "Ancestral Hall", which reduces corruption)

-OR-

Polytheism -> Shamanism -> Oracles (Gives "Oracle" wonder)

-OR-

Polytheism -> Devotional Rituals (Gives "Great Temple" small wonder) -> Mysticism (Enables "Mystic Teacher" improvement, which increases happiness)


I'm still trying to work out this idea. Feel free to add or use these ideas for your Mods since I don't have any programs capable of making the graphics for all of these ideas.