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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:27
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So, I finally decided to try out a strategy that's probably old hat to most of you warmongers out there.
I had a great "homeland" for my civ but knew I was going to be doing a LOT of conquering. So, I built my Forbidden Palace in Lyons (playing as the French, bien sur) and waited to relocate my palace later.
Well, just my luck, after conquering England, Spain, Scandanavia, Arabia, Germany and parts of Russia, I had STILL produced NO Great Leaders. And I have Sun Tzu's. I've hardly had a break from war, and yet no great leaders.
So I decided to just suck it up and start building my palace where I want it, smack in the middle of my continent (Mecca).
So how many turns is it going to take me? 1000!
In case I don't get a great leader soon - I have terrible luck producing the damn things - is there any way I can speed my palace growth? Or will only a great leader do the job?
Help! 
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
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1000 means your palace now costs 1000 shields. The larger your empire gets, the more expensive your palace is (it starts at two or three hundred shields, IIRC). 1000 is the upper limit, I think.
My advice on leaders is this: don't rush the war. Take your time. Kill every AI unit you see, preferably with elite units. Use your elites in as many battles as possible. If you have to delay an attack to heal your elites so they can take part, delay the battle. I sometimes gamble with them (this obviously contradicts my advice to be careful with them, and is a case-by-case judgement call) - if I have, say, a 3hp elite knight healing up in a city, and an AI archer comes my way, I may just pop out and try nailing the archer with my elite knight, figuring that 3hp of knight outta kill 3-4hp of archer on defense.
-Arrian
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:27
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Well, after I take out Russia, there'll be only 2 civs left on my continent - the Ottomans and the Celts, both 5 or 6 techs behind the industrial age (I rock the party, now the most advanced power in the world building ToE).
I was going to let them live, as taking them out WILL be a hassle - both are behind, and settled in, huge mountain/hill ranges, and the Celts, agressive little buggers, have a huge force of vet/elite knights. The Ottomans too have impressive defenses...
...so maybe I'll do a meat-grinder war to smash the Ottomans (and accelerate it before they get to use Sipahi) and than an endless meat-grinder against the Celts (who have many sources of iron).
That will give me UP and, most likely, a leader.
If I don't get a leader from all that, Arrian, I'm going to ask God himself to give me your luck for at least one game, you with your 9 leaders and all. 
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Worthingtons
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Pride Park,Derby
Jan 2002
time: 05:27
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What's the Profile of this City?
if it's built up with the Terrain very much Improved then I'm stuck.
If Not i would do the folllowing.
Rush a Courthouse on the 2nd turn (disband a few useless units and then hit the rush button). If Factory is available do the same - Get the City Producing lot's even if you do have lots of corruption, then I'd mine every single tile and overload this City with Workers - 10-20 workers dependant upon the size already. You can pack the City with Entertainers and make sure you utilise every single productive tile. When the City starves down send in more workers.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:27
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As long as you want your palace on the same continent as the forbidden palace, one possibility is to move it a little bit at a time. Find a highly productive city with, say, 50% or so corruption with courthouse, police station if available, and WLT?D, and build your palace there. Then when it's finished, cities farther away will be low enough corruption that you can move it again. That would still be a long, slow process, but it should be a whole lot less than a thousand turns. And along the way, cities in between the FP and the eventual palace location would get a period of low corruption to build up.
I've never actually used that technique thus far, but I keep it in my bag of tricks just in case it might come in handy sometime.
Nathan
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:27
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Well, I finally got a leader beating off the Russians, so I rushed my palace.
But before hand, I had built a courthouse, which knocked the price down from 1000 turns to 132! Quite a significant advancement!
The "palace skipping" trick sounds good... I'm going to keep that in mind, for the future...
OT, as for those Ottomans, well, I have 100+ cavs, most elite or veteran, but the Ottomans have about 20 cities, many sources of saltpeter, and their entire empire is heavily mountainous. The Celts to the south would be easier, but still a pill. I'm building artillery now... I wanted to bring in screenshot but couldn't figure out how to capture one... I might try a MGW (meat grinder war) but I'm a democracy currently, which might be a problem... still, I want the UP in effect, dammit...
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:27
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Don't Hesitate to Move Your Palace with GLs
I just wanted to note the last two games in a row I've moved my palace using a GL, for the first (2) times. In my current game, as Russia, I've done it twice.
If you can generate the necessary GL, I highly recommend moving your palace to your newly conquered lands as often as possible! A wonderful tactic! I took diplaptidated England/Scandanavia, moved my palace to Trondheim (leaving my FP near Moscow, in Smolensk I believe), and built that area into something worthwhile.
Not knowing what to do with my knights (and, soon, cossacks - great unit!), I decided to gamble on attacking well-developed France and Spain. I thought I'd grab a few cities and dilipidate my fighting force on a few expensive battles, just prior to entering democracy.
But I did better than expected, and when cossacks came along, I committed to wiping these nations out! Bear in mind, they're in the South, with Russia in the north, and Russia not being commercial, my captured cities were quite prone to corruption...
...well, I got several GLs and used one AGAIN to move my palace! Twice in the same game; I thought I'd never see it. Now my capital is Tours, and I have two major industrial "zones": Russia and Spain/France. Furthermore, aside from a Celts and a few straggler cities, I have the whole huge continent to myself.
So, end of story: to all you less experienced players, do experiment with moving your palace. I know it's tempting to build wonders in one turn, but unless you're in a race for one, remember that a GL have give you, potentially, a NEW CORE AREA in addition to the one you've got, assuming you built your FP in your core area.
That, IMO, is a lot more valuable than just one wonder.
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
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Yahweh,
Well done!
I'm glad you've discovered the awesome power of moving your palace. I have occasionally done multiple palace moves (though I do typically try and conquer my way to an "ideal" spot ASAP and just do it once), such as in AU207, where I moved my palace first to Berlin, and then to Tanis (I built it next to the ruins of an American city).
I think it was Catt who posted a thread about multiple palace moves and how you could use it to build up areas of your empire sequentially, to the point where once you moved the palace away, an area would remain relatively productive because you had the chance to build courthouses, markets, etc. while the Palace was in the vicinity.
That's what I did with Germany in AU207. The cities surrounding Berlin built courthouses right away, even though they didn't really need them at the time, so that when I moved the Palace farther north, Germany would remain productive. It worked fairly well.
The difficulty, of course, is generating the leaders necessary to do this, and resisting the temptation to use said leaders on Wonders. Hence my obssession with leader generation... which I feel I've got down pat now.
-Arrian
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Yahweh Sabaoth
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The Heavens
Dec 2002
time: 05:27
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It does all come down to the leaders... as I've *****ed about before, I seem to almost NEVER generate leaders, even in times of heavy war. This game, as the Russians, I've generated 5:
1. Build Army
of course, I built the HE...
2. Move Palace to Trondheim
3. Build Copernicus' Obs. (just to use the leader)
4. Move Palace to Tours
5. Build new Army
I'm well used to rushing the US, ToE, Hoover, etc., and I may still during this game. After all, there's not much continent left, and I don't think I'm leaving mine.
I would have to say that I intend to explore Catt's theory more in my next game (as the Japanese). I definitely left England/Scandanavia, which was seriously underdeveloped, as a solid area with at least temples, libraries, and defense in every city, WITHOUT SPENDING A DIME. Now this area is worth defending and can eventually, of its own merit, grow.
With my two core areas already well-developed, I'm now free to "choose my destiny": ride it out to a cultural victory? Space race? Buttress myself to crush the technological backwards but still nasty Celts?
I'm looking forward to it. But I must admit, Luck played it part in bringing me the first GL back in the ancient/medival war against Germany. If it hadn't been for that ONE BATTLE, who knows where I would be today?
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
But I must admit, Luck played it part in bringing me the first GL back in the ancient/medival war against Germany. If it hadn't been for that ONE BATTLE, who knows where I would be today? |
Luck is huge. Last night, during online discussions with my team in the PTW Demo game (it was our turn, and we're at war, so there was a fair amount of discussion), I fired up a new game.
Standard, Continents, 70%, Normal, Cold, 3 billion, Monarch. I chose... France. That does stack the deck in my favor, given the settings. I got myself a good starting spot (river, cow, some silk). I played for a bit, posted for a bit... I wasn't necessarily going to play the game out. But I was doing well. I was outresearching & outgrowing the AI comfortably. I attacked my closest neighbor, the Iroquois with swordsmen.
Two events took place during that war that convinced me that this is a game to play out:
1) 2 turns before I took it, Salamanca finished the Pyramids.
2) My one and only elite swordsman, upon winning his 2nd battle as an elite, generated a great leader (wiping out the Iroquois in the process).
I also built the Lighthouse and managed to find everyone else, and have a healthy tech & power lead going. My FP, roughly centered on my continent, is due for completion in 4 turns. My last remaining neighbor, Spain, is a joke.
So I have several options open to me, all of which are likely to lead to a comfortable victory:
1) build an army, invade Spain, build HE. Build up for invasion of one of the overseas civs (I'm thinking Arabia).
2) Hold leader, invade Spain, buildup to invade overseas, bring leader for palace move.
3) Rush a wonder.
Ah, decisions, decisions. 
-Arrian
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:27
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Yahweh,
Paris built 4 warriors & a granary right off the bat. One other piece of luck I failed to mention: the second hut I popped gave me a settler. Granted, I built a so-so city with that settler, but that so-so city ended up building the Great Lighthouse.
Anyway, I built libraries in Paris & my #2 city, along with barracks in several cities (not Paris for a while, it pumped settlers/workers for a bit) and then built spearmen and then a bunch of warriors. Connect iron, upgrade warriors, kill. Meanwhile, I built temples, markets, courthouses, etc.
I've just hit the middle ages (feudalism done, monotheism in the works) and noone else has LITERATURE! Some of them are on the cusp of the M.A., but - and I've seen the AI do this before - they seem to be ignoring Lit. I was building the GL, but have switched it to Sun Tzu, and started the GL elsewhere... which may become Sistine or Leos. The GL is likely to be mostly worthless in this game.
-Arrian
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Catt
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California - SF Bay Area
May 2002
time: 21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Don't Hesitate to Move Your Palace with GLs
I just wanted to note the last two games in a row I've moved my palace using a GL, for the first (2) times. In my current game, as Russia, I've done it twice.
If you can generate the necessary GL, I highly recommend moving your palace to your newly conquered lands as often as possible! A wonderful tactic! |
I came pretty late to the benefits of place mobility, also (many months of playing before it hit me as a powerful tactic. It is particularly powerful towards the end of the Middle Ages and into the Industrial Ages when the flood of wonders has receded and the few wonders avaialble can often be had through effective pre-building. At that point, leaders mean army or rushed-building, and a rushed palace can do wonders for an empire.
Ater relocating the palace, getting courthouses, markets, factories and police stations up quickly in the surrounding area means that you can relocate the palace again quite quickly.
As Arrian mentioned, HERE is an older thread where there was a lot of discussion regarding palace movement.
Catt
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10-04-2003 22:54
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