10-04-2003 22:54									#1
	Our Next Tech is ...? Support Apolyton

In chat both History Buff and Lucky of GCA have confirmed the trade ... we will exchange WC & Wheel for Writing with them, and also trade these techs to CDG for Iron Working.

I am instructing my ambassadors to discover what these teams are researching next, so that we can try to coordinate and research different techs to exchange. However, they are likely going to ask us the same question ... and we need to give them an answer.

Some thoughts:

Mapmaking?
Mathematics?
Construction?
Literature?

Please post and discuss.

--Togas

	10-04-2003 23:27									#2
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We should figure out our priorities here.

Mapmaking:

Boats and Harbors. Very valuable tech. Probably the most valuable and important tech in the PTW DG.

Thoughts:
I like this tech. I would recommend it.

Mathematics:

Catapults baby.

Thoughts:
Only reason it's useful is because you need it to get to the next era and if you really really want Construction.

Construction:

Lets you build wonders and other fun stuff like that. Pretty useful tech for "builders," and also opens up Aquaducts. Fairly expensive tech. You also need Mathematics to research it.

Thoughts:
This tech is scary. Your research will be tied up for a very very long time, and you will have a hard time getting a good deal for such a valuble tech.

Literature:

One word: Great Library.
Okay, so that's two words. Also lets you build Libraries, which are most useful under republic.

Thoughts:
Can be useful, if you like Libraries and are in Republic.

Philosophy:

You need it to get to Republic. Need I say more?

Thoughts:
Useful if you want Republic ASAP. Other than that, no.

Code of Laws:

Courthouses. Good for large empires with good land, but lots of corrupt cities. Allows Republic.

Thoughts:
We have a tight city pack, and have little practical use for this tech, other than a stepping-stone to Republic.

Horseback Riding:

Opens up the Horseman unit.

Thoughts:
Only useful if we have Horses, obviously.

	10-04-2003 23:28									#3
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My slant would be towards mapmaking. We are rather hemmed in by our little corner of the world, and finding some nearby islands would be a real boon. Plus, our neighbors can't hinder our oceanic scouting and we could make some nice contacts, theortically. And if worse comes to worse, it's always good to have a boat or two to flee with (right Trip? )

	10-04-2003 23:46									#4
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Agreed on mapmaking- that could be very useful for getting contact first, which could be handy for us for all kinds of reasons. (Selling maps for lots of cash, maybe.)

Construction would be my second choice for purposes of building the Wall to deter the Persians, and have spiffy Aquaducts. But that's a definitely a second choice to Mapmaking by a large margin.

Literature: Feh. Can we get that on trade, please? I hate researching techs we don't need to step between eras, and until we have cities with significant commerce, Libraries won't be that useful anyhow. Low, low priority. The amount of tech trading going around will probably lower the usefulness of the Great Library, too - especially since we'll need large-scale contact for it to be useful.

Horseback Riding: You see horses? I don't see horses. Are we done with The Wheel yet.....? Didn't see, but these would only be useful if we planned on assaulting the Persians; it would be mighty useful for that, though. But since the predominant opinion around here isn't to strike first, I'd put this alongside Literature. S

Why has nothing been mentioned about the possibility of chasing down Monarchy? I know some potential reasons, just curious as to why in this situation.

	10-04-2003 23:49									#5
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Without spending too much time pondering about the issue, I would lean toward Map Making, too. It would help us with our exploration efforts... and exchanging world or territory maps with GCA might ease the tension between us and them and make them more open and willing to cooperate (as I prematurely suggested in another thread).

OTOH, we do not seem to plan any coastal cities soon...

	10-04-2003 23:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Why has nothing been mentioned about the possibility of chasing down Monarchy? I know some potential reasons, just curious as to why in this situation.

We'd need Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism for that. Right now, we don't even have CB, and another team would probably have a huge jump on us in that department.

	11-04-2003 01:51									#7
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From what Lucky has told us, both CDG and GCA are interested in the tech paths to Republic and Monarchy. From our deal with GCA, they seem to be going after Republic (they'll be researching Philosophy [I think]).

Meanwhile, we'll snatch up the "useful" techs of the Ancient era, while CDG and GCA slug up through the government techs.

	11-04-2003 02:38									#8
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If we didn't have so damn much jungle I'd be in favor of HBR; and then only if we knew we had horse's nearby.

As it stands I'd favor MM as well, though we should alter our city layout plan to include a city on the coast in time so that it is ready to build a Galley on the turn it is layed out or soon after (pre-build even, maybe). Actually prebuilding a Galley on the coast is what I would favor most, otherwise your wasting time that we have MM available to us; we want a jump on the other teams. Imagine how cool it would be to have a Galley built the turn after we discover MM!

	11-04-2003 03:35									#9
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+1 mapmaking

After that I'd say go republic if we can't trade for it.

Someone with more multiplayer experience will have to assess the value of the great library in this game. I can see where it'd be really useful if things werent going too well diplomatically....but we aren't exactly in a position to dedicate a city to building a wonder right now anyways.

	11-04-2003 03:56									#10
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GL isn't very useful in the DGs. Techs are usually traded and researched at a great speed, and the only usefulness you'll get out of the GL is if you're planning on building it and saving up cash for upgrading or something else to that effect.

Also, not good for diplomacy...

"Hey, we just got this cool new tech, want to trade for it?"

"Nah, we've got the GL, we don't need to trade with anyone."

	11-04-2003 06:20									#11
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I don't agree with us going for MM. Reasons :

1. MM would be the logicial choice for the other 2 civilisations we know since we are surrounded by water. Especially GCA, since their route to the North is already sealed by CDG. But of course, we can't be sure of what's South of GCA.
2. So we have to be different. We should choose tech that are not researched by GCA and CDG.

3. The cost of the tech, thanks to Bigfree's chart :
Mathematics 8, Construction 20, Currency 26 (Construction & Currency requires Mathematics)
Philosophy 6
Code of Law 10
Literature 10
MM 12
Horseback 5
Mysticism 4, Polytheism 12 (Poly requires Mysticism)

4. With CDG being Persian, & potentially threatening, it probably make good sense for us to choose Tech that can produce Military units
5. I would propose Horseback 5 and Mathematics 8. in exchange for MM 12 and in exchange of whatever tech CDG wants to research.

Have a nice day.

	11-04-2003 06:34									#12
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Map Making is definitely the most useful tech to us right now and in the immediate future.

But I believe Code of Laws is the right choice. If both teams think that a Republic beeline is the way to go, we need to make ourselves indispensable to that goal. This way we're not as likely to be a military target. Code of Laws is better than Philosophy because it costs a bunch more meaning it really puts them behind in case they decide to backstab us.

We also really want to send some team down the Monarchy route. We really do not want to research that branch ourselves, as its use is nearly zero apart from changing eras.

To repeat my vote: Code of Laws.


Dominae

	11-04-2003 06:41									#13
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Rush -

Regarding your choice number 3...

We actually proposed that deal to GCA today except in opposite...

Here is what we know. GCA and CDG are both making a bee line straight for Republic/Monarchy. They aren't too interested in using these techs it seems like. We wanted to get Map Making ourselves and arrange a deal to trade it for Horseback Riding and Philosophy. Also, if we do this, we can "fudge" the numbers so to speak and when they ask us how far away we are from completeing it we can say something like "5 turns!" (except it is actually done ) to give us a "head start" of exploring.

Exploring is just as beneficial to us as it is to GCA. I'm pretty sure that GCA knows there isn't anything north of CDG besides us, so they probably don't have much interest to explore/settle (corruption would kill). However, we are almost POSITIVE that CFC is around GCA and we currently have no way to find out. Map Making would instantly open this up for us to find another route to them and possibly other civilizations as well.

	11-04-2003 15:24									#14
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As president of AYC (Apolyton Yatch Club) I must say MapMaking.
Contact with other CIV's is important, when we have more contacts it will be harder to backstab us.

	11-04-2003 15:45									#15
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Dominae makes a strong case for code of laws, but I still think Map Making is the most beneficial to our situation.

	11-04-2003 16:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by rush 3. The cost of the tech, thanks to Bigfree's chart : Mathematics 8, Construction 20, Currency 26 (Construction & Currency requires Mathematics) Philosophy 6 Code of Law 10 Literature 10 MM 12 Horseback 5 Mysticism 4, Polytheism 12 (Poly requires Mysticism)

Just a small correction: Currency is 16, not 26.

	11-04-2003 16:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Just a small correction: Currency is 16, not 26.

My graphic is correct I think he just made a simple transcibing mistake.


MM will be a boon for us; If we are not planning on taking an offensive war to either CDG or GCA then this should be our route. Contact with other Civ's will be the single most valuable resource; especially if they are accross some sea tiles only. We may have to do a few 'suicide' missions to find them, I don't know.

	11-04-2003 17:46									#18
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I still think we have to think about our continued survival with CDG and GCA as neighbors. If they allow us to research Code of Laws (while they research something else), they would have to be prepared to waste time researching it themselves if they want to backstab us and still beeline for The Republic. This side-effect of researching Code of Laws is very important. The effects of researching Map Making are there if we research it ourselves or if we trade for it (we're not going to get that much of a head start on naval exploration if we research Map Making first but plan to trade it). The effect of Code of Laws is not present unless we go for it first.


Dominae

	11-04-2003 18:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree My graphic is correct I think he just made a simple transcibing mistake.

You are right. It's my mistake.
Actually I wanted to attached you chart, but this forum does not seem to allow me to. Not sure why.

	11-04-2003 19:16									#20
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Well, it's true that CDG/GCA would "risk" having to research CoL on their own, if we got it first... however, from the strategic point of view, the only immediate effect of CoL is that one is able to build courthouses - after one discovers CoL, Republic is still 672 (816, if considering the need for Philosophy) beakers away. Courthouses will not be needed in 20-40 turns (which is approximately the time span we are talking about).

OTOH, Map Making allows galleys to be built - with them, we would not only be able to explore, improving our knowledge of the (potential) enemy, but we would also be able to make surprise landings anywhere... which would probably do more good - as far as discouraging attacks goes - than "sitting on" CoL. Two vet Mercs landed in the enemy's rear to pillage... now that's something they'd have to think of... and if they fail to... even better... Plus, we might even make a contact with another team... which would be a strategic advantage magnitude bigger than having CoL...

Even though I can see reasons for CoL, I still believe MM is a (much) better choice. Researching Republic on our own is a risky business - we could easily end up having Republic (as our exclusive), but being stuck in the ancient times - if the other teams decide to "keep" us there. Republic alone is less of a blessing for Carthage than it is for Egypt (or India, for that matter - due to the lack of religiousness) - the anarchy period makes it less than a "no brainer" when to switch governments... I would rather keep one or two era-mandatory techs as our exclusives than one government tech. Extra commerce gained by switching into Republic may be to a large extent voided - at least for ~20 turns - by the fact that we might have to research the techs one needs to go medieval. I'd rather have it the other way round...

Especially if we are able to arrange our deals so that we research MM, while others beeline for the government techs... WITHOUT having our deals properly signed, we would then be able to wait for THEM to come to the bargaining table. As we would be holding a tech that actually allows something (quite important), while they would be having something that could potentially be great (for researching medieval techs faster) - but not without "our", "mandatory" techs that actually make researching those fancy medieval techs possible...

	11-04-2003 19:54									#21
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I can only agree with Trip, we should put Mapmaking on the reseach list (after wheel, and WC).

	11-04-2003 21:45									#22
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quote: Originally posted by rush You are right. It's my mistake. Actually I wanted to attached you chart, but this forum does not seem to allow me to. Not sure why.

In this forum you attach images by clicking on the 'IMG' button in the 'post reply' dialog. The you enter in the url of the image you want to post. If the image is already on APO's server's then all you have to do is copy the link to the image by right clicking on in and selecting 'properties'; then you can highlight it, copy the address, using ctrl c. You then put that url into the box that pops up when you click on the 'IMG' button and you are done!

If the image is not on APO already, and you want to post your own; you need to use the 'upload' service. It's relatively new at APO, but you can see a link for it at the top of any forum; it's got a red "new" box next to it. You can upload just about anything with this service, there is a limit to size though. It's like having your own personal image library on the web; APO did a great job setting it up.

	11-04-2003 22:08									#23
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vondrack, researching Code of Laws yields two benefits:

1. "Ensures" relative peace with CDG and GCA, at least until they obtain it through a trade.

2. Gets us closer to The Republic ourselves.

On the other hand, Map Making provides:

1. Harbors
2. Galleys

Harbors are going to be very useful, but they cost a bunch and so we can always prebuild for them. Galleys are obviously why we want Map Making.

But IMO the benefits of Code of Laws outweigh those of Map Making. Obviously we need to get Map Making somehow, which is why we should convince either GCA or CDG that they should research it (which should not be too hard). In this scenario, we get our cake and eat it too, since we get the benefits of Map Making (through a trade) and those of Code of Laws at the same time.


Dominae

	12-04-2003 01:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Horseback Riding: You see horses? I don't see horses. Are we done with The Wheel yet.....?

No - we will research it later.

I agree with MapMaking - it's a good tech, both military and exploring-wise... we might even find some goody huts on small islands...

	12-04-2003 05:08									#25
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So, based on what's being discussed, the Tech route appears to be :

GCA : Republic/Monarchy Route
Philisophy (6) -> Code of Law (10) -> Republic (28) OR
Mysticism (4) -> Polytheism (12) -> Monarchy (24)
CDG : Republic/Monarchy Route as above
Apoly : Map Making(12)

Tech not researched by anybody but necessary to move on to to Middle Age : Mathematics (8), Construction (20), Currency (16)
Tech not researched and not essential for Middle Age : Horseback Riding (5), Literature (10)

So, to move forward, my suggestion is :

A. Long Term Technology Co-operation Approach
1. Convince both GCA and CDG especially that we are all stuck in the same island/continent. It's not big, but enough for all of us to grow & prosper. And if we fight, it would just benefit other teams.
2. Convince them that we do not want to lag behind in Technologies when we meet up with other civilisations in other continents
3. So, we should co-ordinate & split the research to get us to Middle age.
4. But we do not turn on our research engine 100%. Maybe 70%, save the 30% for units upgrading to protect ourself.
5. Note - this may backfire badly should GCA and CDG have previlege infor on other civilisations on our island

B. Protection First Approach
1. Simply research technologies that will give us military units that protect ourselves or allow us to explore
2. This would include Map Making, Mathematics, Horse Riding

C. Pragmatic Short-Term Linkup Approach
1. Research technologies that will get us to Middle Age, skip the unnecessary techs.
2. Set up only short term link up with CDG/GCA on what tech to exchange next. eg, we research MM, you research Code of Law. Exchange at completion.
3. A few turns before the tech is researched, discuss what to research next.

I have one question. While both CDG/GCA are interested in Monarch/Republic, which govt type is more appropriate for CDG, and which type is suitable for GCA ?

Link to BigFree's Tech Chart
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/ru...ditorValues.gif
Edited to fix the link

Last edited by rush on 12-04-2003 at 05:15

	13-04-2003 04:28									#26
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While Dominae's arguments for CoL are compelling, I also must vote for Mapmaking, followed by Horseback Riding if we have horses.

We need to ensure our self-reliance.

	26-04-2003 06:25									#27
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Important Update

We are relatively sure that CDG finished Iron Working and are now on something else.

GCA confirmed that they will finish Writing on their next turn (43?) and will then start on something else.

My ambassadors are now trying to determine what CDG and GCA will be working on next. We believe that GCA will take the Monarchy route, as they claim, but we are uncertain where CDG will go.

It seems clear that our team wants to research Mapmaking next, and I fully agree with that decision. However, I would like us to discuss what tech we should research IF Mapmaking is unavailable.
It seems that Code of Laws is the 2nd most popular choice. Yes?

I will update this thread as soon as we know exactly what CDG & GCA are working on.

--Togas

	26-04-2003 07:06									#28
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My votes (in order of preference):

1. Code of Laws
2. Map Making
3. Philosophy

Clearly if we're agreeing on Map Making first, I think Code of Laws should be next.

I'm very glad one other team is taking the Monarchy route, as it demonstrates that they're not aware that Monarchy sucks in MP. Maybe they'll even switch to it, to our benefit.


Dominae

	26-04-2003 08:36									#29
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All hail the Republic!

My current game my GNP doubled and my Mfg. Goods went to 1.5 times what it was before Republic. Getting that tech means ultimate power.

Err... Sorry, getting ahead of myself.

Map Making, of course.

I always did want a big High Seas Imperial Fleet...

	26-04-2003 09:20									#30
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I think we'd have to see what they are in fact researching. It matter's because we owe one point of reaserach to GCA and CDG owes us one. In order to secure any future deals with these rather unwieldy teams, we may have to choose a tech for how the tech balances against the tech they both choose next. Since they are done before we are, we get the third pick.

All of that aside, I'd like (1)CoL or (2)Mathematics.