11-04-2003 04:30									#1
	With 1 turn left, switching tax/science. Support Apolyton

I've been using this strategy for a while. With 1 turn left in tech research, I play with the tax/science slider bar. I'll see how much I can give back to tax while still having 1 turn left for the research. If I am researching at a high rate, I've found that I can go down almost to 20% or 30% while still maintaining the 1 turn. This is a good way to get a little bit more money out of your taxes. After discovering the tech, I reset the tech slider. Basically, this is a clever way to get more money without disrupting your tech progress. Anyone else do this? Comment.

	11-04-2003 05:36									#2
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No offense, but it's an old and well-known trick. Still, it's nice to have such things brought up occasionally for those who haven't been around long enough to see all the old and well-known tricks.

	11-04-2003 05:41									#3
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That's a good strategy. I do it with every tech, and in certain situations this change can amount to as much as 50 gold per advance. If in real milking mood, I better check that slider in every turn, like starting at 70%, next turn checking and seeing that I can get that tech within same time but only 60% in science, so I can increase taxes, and come back later to see the slider again. This fiddling only amounts to a couple of gold pieces, though, and could get a bit too tedious. But overall this is probably the easiest way to raise some cash for free, so it's warmly recommended to everyone.

	11-04-2003 06:02									#4
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I think it's better to check two or three turns before tech completion. The reason: Sometimes, I have to research at 10% and will still get the tech in 1 turn. That means that even with the lowest research possible (apart from scientists), there is still waste. you can prevent this by looking a couple of turns before you discover the tech.

You can do the same thing with production, but do not try this on a huge map, as it will soon become micromanagement hell! Everytime a city grows, zoom on it and rearrange the loborers to get maximum (insert what you want here, production, food, commerce, etc...) I have begun to do this and it can make or break the early game in the higher levels...

--Kon--

	11-04-2003 06:27									#5
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If you're really keeping track of your Commerce, you can start pulling your Science slider back 2 and 3 turns in advance and save even more Gold than you would if you only do it on the last turn before a tech research is done. Thankfully this is only useful in the early-game, where the calculations are easy and the additional Gold may actually make a difference.


Dominae

	11-04-2003 06:35									#6
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay No offense, but it's an old and well-known trick. Still, it's nice to have such things brought up occasionally for those who haven't been around long enough to see all the old and well-known tricks.

Checking my own register date...

	11-04-2003 06:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If you're really keeping track of your Commerce, you can start pulling your Science slider back 2 and 3 turns in advance and save even more Gold than you would if you only do it on the last turn before a tech research is done. Thankfully this is only useful in the early-game, where the calculations are easy and the additional Gold may actually make a difference.

Does pulling back research earlier rather than later really make any difference unless you complete one or more libraries, universities, and/or research labs in the meantime? If you complete science structures, there's a chance doing more of your research later rather than earlier can reduce the total amount of gold needed to research a tech. But otherwise, I don't see how it would matter on average; you'd have to do some serious analysis to figure out whether cutting research by a small amount earlier or a larger amount later will do better in a particular case.

Nathan

	11-04-2003 07:04									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If you're really keeping track of your Commerce, you can start pulling your Science slider back 2 and 3 turns in advance and save even more Gold than you would if you only do it on the last turn before a tech research is done. Thankfully this is only useful in the early-game, where the calculations are easy and the additional Gold may actually make a difference. Dominae

Yep. Keeping track of how much you've put in is a good way to make a few extra GPs. You can usually fiddle with the slider and your commerce levels a bit and pinpoint exactly how many beakers you need to get the tech.

I'll usually wait until later to pull back on research for the reasons that Nathan brought up.

	11-04-2003 07:18									#9
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By the way, in a government where I can rush with gold, if I can do four-turn research with a surplus, I'll often pull back my research as early as possible to get gold for rushing buildings sooner.

	11-04-2003 07:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay But otherwise, I don't see how it would matter on average; you'd have to do some serious analysis to figure out whether cutting research by a small amount earlier or a larger amount later will do better in a particular case.

It does not matter on average. But if you're willing to do it (which I sometimes am), you can save yourself small amonts of Gold. No big deal, but it's worth pointing out.

And, by the way, for this to work you do no need to have Libraries and such built in the meantime, or even cities to grow. The way the game rounds Science/Tax/Luxury it is sometimes impossible to complete a tech dead-on Beaker-wise unless you fiddle with the sliders a few turns in advance.


Dominae

	11-04-2003 12:01									#11
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The fact that other civs are researching the same tech, would also have to enter the calculation somehow, I believe !? I could be wrong, though

	11-04-2003 12:49									#12
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quote: You can do the same thing with production, but do not try this on a huge map, as it will soon become micromanagement hell! Everytime a city grows, zoom on it and rearrange the loborers to get maximum (insert what you want here, production, food, commerce, etc...) I have begun to do this and it can make or break the early game in the higher levels...

I am actually doing this.

I am checking almost every turn, what is the situation in my cities, how many unhappy people will I have, when I let the city grow. Improving the terrain around the city is also a function of that.

Later, I just simply memorize, the max city size number - for the current luxury, temples etc situation - when there is no civil disorder.

I am also trying to save money, with the slider, especially at the beginning of the game. Later can be also very usefull, when there is a need for buying an improvement or upgrading the military. I am not using the upgrade of the units, but sometimes when suddenly someone attacks me, I need an up-to-date and modern army ASAP.

I use micromanagement, because I'm afraid my macromanagement skills are stil not good enough.

cumi

	11-04-2003 13:27									#13
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Somewhat related to this topic is, how to built units (eg Airport) on the same turn that the Technology (Flight) is researched.

1. On the turn when the Technology is researched, I would choose "See the Big Picture" to view the Tech tree
2. Then I would flip over to the City Screen
3. Click the cities that I want to change production to Airport. I can also rush production in some cities.
4. Success. On the same turn Flight is researched, I have several Airports built that I can make use of.

	11-04-2003 13:29									#14
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quote: Somewhat related to this topic is, how to built units (eg Airport) on the same turn that the Technology (Flight) is researched. 1. On the turn when the Technology is researched, I would choose "See the Big Picture" to view the Tech tree 2. Then I would flip over to the City Screen 3. Click the cities that I want to change production to Airport. I can also rush production in some cities. 4. Success. On the same turn Flight is researched, I have several Airports built that I can make use of.

	11-04-2003 15:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Thankfully this is only useful in the early-game, where the calculations are easy and the additional Gold may actually make a difference. Dominae

Sorry to disagree, but if you play the tech slider well, you can get up to 600-800 gold on the last turn during the industrial ages (at least with the French). Then you can run -200 deficits for 4 turns, accept another -200 the 5th, put the lider back again for the last turn and you have researched a new tech in 6 turns for a total cost of 200/400 gold.

	11-04-2003 15:48									#16
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I fear the things stated about this "trick" may not be correct.
What I suspect is that the computer adds the science points generated by each of your cities, and when they reach the neccesary sum, the advance is ganied.
So, if this this happens when, say, the 4th city added up his points, the points genreated by the 5th city will be used for the next science advance.
This means that, if you have 1 turn left to research, you can switch the science ladder back, and the advance will still be gained in the next turn, but much later (for example when the 10th city adds up its science points).
You gain more money, that's undisputed, but you traded them for the science points that could be used to start up the next advance.

Waddaya thn'k ?

	11-04-2003 17:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Rogerdude I fear the things stated about this "trick" may not be correct. What I suspect is that the computer adds the science points generated by each of your cities, and when they reach the neccesary sum, the advance is ganied. So, if this this happens when, say, the 4th city added up his points, the points genreated by the 5th city will be used for the next science advance. This means that, if you have 1 turn left to research, you can switch the science ladder back, and the advance will still be gained in the next turn, but much later (for example when the 10th city adds up its science points). You gain more money, that's undisputed, but you traded them for the science points that could be used to start up the next advance. Waddaya thn'k ?

That was the way it worked in civ 2, but it has been demonstrated many tmies that civ3 does it differently. If you have excess beakers of research left over, they are wasted rather than being put into the next tech. Its a shame, but c'est la vie.

	11-04-2003 19:20									#18
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quote: If you're really keeping track of your Commerce, you can start pulling your Science slider back 2 and 3 turns in advance and save even more Gold...

I've taken to fiddling with the slider once I'm 2 turns away now. I often am still doing things that could change my science output, such as building libraries/universities, courthouses/police stations, or even just city growth.

-Arrian

	11-04-2003 22:32									#19
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Toward the heavy micromanagement end of the spectrum, I've actually been known to crank down my research early and crank it up late when I'm working on libraries and universities in the hope of maybe saving some gold. The most extreme variant of that when tech takes more than four turns to research and maximum research results in a deficit is to actually turn off research early and build up a surplus which can later be spent researching at a deficit once more science buildings are in place.

	12-04-2003 03:02									#20
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Toward the heavy micromanagement end of the spectrum, I've actually been known to crank down my research early and crank it up late when I'm working on libraries and universities in the hope of maybe saving some gold. The most extreme variant of that when tech takes more than four turns to research and maximum research results in a deficit is to actually turn off research early and build up a surplus which can later be spent researching at a deficit once more science buildings are in place.

This is an incredibly interesting idea. How does it affect building GW? How fast do you catch up to the other Civ's? Does it work equally well across different difficulty levels? Do you trade resources for techs from the AI Civs while your population works to complete your academic infrastructure?

	12-04-2003 04:49									#21
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This is also a good idea if you're about to build the TOE and you know you cant possibly discover a tech before the thing is built. I just switch all tech off and go for gold instead when I know I'm the only one who has a chance of building it.

	12-04-2003 06:14									#22
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 This is an incredibly interesting idea. How does it affect building GW? How fast do you catch up to the other Civ's? Does it work equally well across different difficulty levels? Do you trade resources for techs from the AI Civs while your population works to complete your academic infrastructure?

So far, I've only tried the "save early, research after more science buildings are done" approach within the confines of researching a single tech. For example, if a tech takes six turns to research at 60%, I might suspend research for two turns and then push it up to 90% until I determine that I can get the tech at the same time at a lower rate. I don't do that sort of thing often, but I figured I'd bring it up.

The problem with doing it over a longer period of time is that it could cost tech trading opportunities, opportunities to build something new I want to build, or such. But under the right circumstances (e.g. only you know the prerequisite tech so trading won't be affected, and you don't care that much about when you get techs short of your target), it could be done across multiple techs.

Nathan

	12-04-2003 19:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Mizaq This is also a good idea if you're about to build the TOE and you know you cant possibly discover a tech before the thing is built. I just switch all tech off and go for gold instead when I know I'm the only one who has a chance of building it.

Exactly, you just discovered a tech and see that you are going to build ToE in 3 turns. Put that tech to 0 because your research will be wasted!

- OR -

Modify your ToE city to be built on the same turn you discover a tech, thereby not wasting those 3 turns of good research!

	14-04-2003 12:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Toward the heavy micromanagement end of the spectrum, I've actually been known to crank down my research early and crank it up late when I'm working on libraries and universities in the hope of maybe saving some gold. The most extreme variant of that when tech takes more than four turns to research and maximum research results in a deficit is to actually turn off research early and build up a surplus which can later be spent researching at a deficit once more science buildings are in place.

Absolutely.
The classical example is when you have the GL. You research then at 40 turns/tech and save all the gold. Then you build Libraries fairly soon (if you are still REXing, it's Settler-Library-Settler ...).

Once you get Education, you crank up the tech slider at 4-5 turns. Of course, you will run 50-80 gold/turn deficits, but this has been budgeted for. You sell then the first and second techs to everybody who can afford it for gpt. Most AI won't have any gold left to research as fast as you.

Finally, before entering the next age, you research the last couple of techs in 6-7 turns and accumulate the gold again (if you need to, of course). My experience is that the first techs of a new age (specially if you are the tech leader) are very expensive at 4-5 turns/tech.

If you go for a Spece Race win, the overall goal is to be able to research all the Modern Age techs at 5 turns/tech maximum.

Then it's take off....