11-04-2003 02:06									#1
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by MarkG seems like brad's post is trolling out the idiots one by one... Stardock has already announced a years of updates. after that, with the subscription system that they have created and the fan base that is being formed, they've got all the reasons of the world to continue with the updates

In other words, they kept some of the content out of the game so they could release it in patches over the next year. This is, as I said in my other post, inconveniancing their legitimate customers by forcing them to download dozens of updates if they want all the content, and also by not giving them the full thing right off the bat. Pirates will have to wait a year before they can get it all hassle-free, and so will the customers. The only difference is that the customers will have to wait a bit less inbetween the updates.

	11-04-2003 03:20									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Or maybe they don't have it all done yet? They've announced a year of updates: That doesn't mean they have a year of content lying around. Maybe they're generating new content as they go along, or they have a different section of their staff working on this seperate project and it's easier for them to set it up this way?

The epitome of the self-centered: They must be doing this to inconvenience ME!

	11-04-2003 04:19									#3
	Got spare money?

quote: In other words, they kept some of the content out of the game so they could release it in patches over the next year. This is, as I said in my other post, inconveniancing their legitimate customers by forcing them to download dozens of updates if they want all the content, and also by not giving them the full thing right off the bat.

the didnt keep anything. if they wanted to put everything in the game that they will release this year, they would (imagine this) have to delay the release one year

the fact that you can program something into a game doesnt mean that the implementation is instant....

and when we talk about "a year of updates" it means "money to pay programmers to work on this specific thing for a year"

	11-04-2003 04:27									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

in fact, the game has been delayed for over a year (do a search in our news). it's certain they didnt have the time to do features only to hide them from the release version so that they can sit for a year while making people's lives harder forcing them to download patches(for which they are thanked for continuing to support the game after so many months(a really really really evil plan!!!))

	11-04-2003 04:29									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Seems to me that they certainly are listening to what the customers say, and taking that into account when creating new content or changing the game. I doubt they have lots of ready-made stuff lying around...

I am very impressed by both the game, and by their attitude to us customers and the support given.

/unic

	11-04-2003 07:00									#6
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by MarkG the didnt keep anything. if they wanted to put everything in the game that they will release this year, they would (imagine this) have to delay the release one year

Exactly my point, they released it unfinished - a whole year before it's finsihed, apparently - and plan completing it through a slew of patches. Actually, I don't know what these updates are, but I doubt they're much - probably not a year's worth of work.


Any developer that has patches planned before the game is even released gets a big thumbs-down from me.

	11-04-2003 08:28									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Exactly my point, they released it unfinished - a whole year before it's finsihed, apparently - and plan completing it through a slew of patches. Actually, I don't know what these updates are, but I doubt they're much - probably not a year's worth of work. Any developer that has patches planned before the game is even released gets a big thumbs-down from me.

If you want a game that is never patched after it comes out, you shouldn't have any problem finding one; there are many developers who refuse to support their products, blithely shipping their game and immediately forgetting about it, so they can go on to make the Next Big Thing.

If, however, you want a game that is actually improved from suggestions made by players after it was released then GalCiv is your game. There were many large additions in the Bonus Pack that came with the game release (since the game was delayed an extra month at the request of the US distributor.) There have been multiple moderate additions already, based on feedback from players. And there are very large additions planned for the free expansion pack that is scheduled to be released in June -- you can look elsewhere on this forum where those details are outlined.

Perhaps you like playing a game that is the same forever as it was when it came out of the box. Perhaps you enjoy playing only what the imperious game designers came up with, and not being able to suggest any improvements of your own. Perhaps you're thrilled to discover games that have no support by their developer. If so, great, there are many games like that.

Myself, I find it refreshing that a developer has allotted the manpower to add new features and fixes to a game for an entire year after they got my money for the game. I rather enjoy being given a free updater program that can grab those updates for me on a regular basis, instead of having to wait at least 2-4 weeks for each single patch to come out. And I tend to have found that the changes so far have come from what the actual players want, even if it sometimes goes against what the designers initially thought would work best. (The change to the trade slider is a perfect example of this.)

I happen to enjoy all that. But then, I suppose that I'm alone in those sentiments... nobody else could possibly want a game like that, could they?

	11-04-2003 11:26									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Exactly my point, they released it unfinished - a whole year before it's finsihed, apparently

galciv is a complete game out of it's box. it has it's issues and there are tons of ideas to make it better, but that happens in any game

the difference is the developer's commitment (money) to continue improving it

i guess you prefer the classic "develop until we run out of money, release, make a first patch only if the game sells, make a second patch only if there is good chance that an expansion pack will sell" scheme that we have all learned to love....

	11-04-2003 14:07									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

"[Games] are never finished, only published."

The old adage is true of just about any project. Commercial and technical reasons mean that you will never wait until everything is 100% perfect. I certainly don't in my field of work. Not least because until you see the public reaction, you don''t even know what 100% perfect is.

All that matters is that you get a good, fun, (almost) bug-free game out-of-the-box. Then it can be released. You can then get a happy fan-base and add your free updates based on their feedback.

Or you could deny the fans access to a good game for a further year, and stick in a bunch of extra features that you think are good but the fans might not like or care about.

If you think the game is incomplete then just wait a year before you buy it. You should even be able to get it cheap by doing this.

That's what I'm doing for MOO3 (which is incomplete,unfun and bug-ridden).

	11-04-2003 14:18									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Osweld, i really suggest that you play the game before calling it unfinished.
Unlike more recent releases, this game IS finished and playable right out the box. I understand that with the let downs of civ3 and moo3, you may think that this is impossible, but it is.
GalCiv delivered what it promised. Good gameplay and a killer AI.
There aren't any features mentioned on the box that you don't get. *cough*civ3 multiplayer*cough*
If you're going to compare it with the game it might be in one year, then yes, it's incomplete. But if you take the game as it is now, and look for all the things they promised in the initial release, then it's complete.

quote: Actually, I don't know what these updates are, but I doubt they're much - probably not a year's worth of work.

Bad bad Osweld, drawing conclusions like that without even knowing the content of the first updates
Them releasing several patches in one week should give you an idea of how much work they're putting into it.

quote: Any developer that has patches planned before the game is even released gets a big thumbs-down from me.

What about a developer that promises free expansion packs? That's how i see it, since there is nothing seriously wrong with the game. There are bugs, yes, but that year of commitment isn't just about fixing bugs.

	11-04-2003 17:41									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy Osweld, i really suggest that you play the game before calling it unfinished.

If it is not unfinished, why is there a years worth of patches planned and, as you say, already a series of patches in a single week?

I didn't say it was unplayable, just that it is not complete, and that they're stringing people along in a futile attempt to keep the pirates at bay.

quote: If you want a game that is never patched after it comes out, you shouldn't have any problem finding one; there are many developers who refuse to support their products, blithely shipping their game and immediately forgetting about it, so they can go on to make the Next Big Thing.

I want a game that doesn't have the first patches scheduled before it even hits the shelves.

quote: Perhaps you like playing a game that is the same forever as it was when it came out of the box. Perhaps you enjoy playing only what the imperious game designers came up with, and not being able to suggest any improvements of your own. Perhaps you're thrilled to discover games that have no support by their developer. If so, great, there are many games like that.

Are there any modding capabilities in Galciv and if so, are they compatible with the patches?

quote: Myself, I find it refreshing that a developer has allotted the manpower to add new features and fixes to a game for an entire year after they got my money for the game. I rather enjoy being given a free updater program that can grab those updates for me on a regular basis, instead of having to wait at least 2-4 weeks for each single patch to come out. And I tend to have found that the changes so far have come from what the actual players want, even if it sometimes goes against what the designers initially thought would work best. (The change to the trade slider is a perfect example of this.)

After-release support is not something new, and is not something that should need promising. All the good devlopers already do this, and they don't do it only to spite pirates. (Although Blizzard likes to take pirates into consideration in their patches - they did something similiar to this with warcraft 3 - they don't just pump out patches for the hell of it.)

Are you really so impatient that you can't wait 2-4 weeks for a good patch, and would rather download 2-4 small patches every week? Just think about a person who buys this game a year from now... they're going to have hundreds of patches to download. This sort of 'rapid release' strategy of patches is much more prone to making mistakes and creating new bugs in the game, anyways.



By the way, Maxis promised continuing support for The Sims when it was released, and it only lasted a few weeks before they releaized they could be making expansion packs and geting people to pay for it all instead.

	11-04-2003 18:12									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: If it is not unfinished, why is there a years worth of patches planned and, as you say, already a series of patches in a single week?

I see patches as a means to fix bugs only, if you have another definition please post it. If not, then i already answered your question:

quote: There are bugs, yes, but that year of commitment isn't just about fixing bugs.

quote: I didn't say it was unplayable, just that it is not complete, and that they're stringing people along in a futile attempt to keep the pirates at bay.

But what is missing then? What do you miss that should be in now? Stardock said what the game will contain on release, and that is what they've already delivered.

quote: I want a game that doesn't have the first patches scheduled before it even hits the shelves.

It's only realistic to plan for at least one patche post-release. It would be arrogant not to. The only thing Stardock did different is to make it public, and schedule updates to go along with the patches.

quote: Just think about a person who buys this game a year from now... they're going to have hundreds of patches to download.

Eh? "Cumulative patch"

	11-04-2003 18:33									#13
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* Lemmy reads Oswelds post again..
Bah you're confusing

You call it an unfinished and incomplete game. But it isn't unplayable...mk, i can live with that, though a bit odd.
But then, you don't like the fact that there are patches (and updates/new features!) scheduled, and that you don't want patches to be planned before release....yet you find it normal that good developers have after-release support ("not something that should need promising"). So the "good developers" obviously expect it, and most likely also plan for it.
Then why condemn Stardock for being open about it and offering a lot better support then most developers?

	11-04-2003 18:36									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sure, I'd like the game to come out-of-box with a magic wand that allows me to go a year into the future and update the game with all the cumulative knowledge gained. Anybody know of a game that comes with a (functioning) magic wand? No?

O.K. I'll stick with a company like Stardock. Thanks.

	11-04-2003 19:05									#15
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::hands you his magic wand::

How do you think I've gotten the "Ultra Terraforming Mark IV" tech in all my games? Duh.

	11-04-2003 20:11									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: If it is not unfinished, why is there a years worth of patches planned

does geting a college degree mean that you're done with learning anything else in this life?
it's the same thing

quote: I want a game that doesn't have the first patches scheduled before it even hits the shelves.

due to the time difference between going gold and release day, ALL games these days have at least 1 patch planned early after the release
at least games done by serious developers

quote: Are there any modding capabilities in Galciv and if so, are they compatible with the patches?

yes and probably(as the patches dont just fix bugs, but mainly also tweak some rules for better balance...

quote: Just think about a person who buys this game a year from now... they're going to have hundreds of patches to download

eeer hmmm.... just one patch.....

quote: By the way, Maxis promised continuing support for The Sims when it was released, and it only lasted a few weeks before they releaized they could be making expansion packs and geting people to pay for it all instead.

guess what, stardock is releasing a **FREE** expansion pack....

	11-04-2003 20:27									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dont forget that the year of updates contains a *FREE* Expansion pack!

why not go play Moo3, not *thats* a game thats unplayable out of the box :P

	11-04-2003 20:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy * Lemmy reads Oswelds post again.. Bah you're confusing You call it an unfinished and incomplete game. But it isn't unplayable...mk, i can live with that, though a bit odd.

It is unfinished because the developer has said that there would be a years worth of patches. They are stringing people along. You said that they've told us what will be in the game at release - well, they've also told us that there's still a lot not there.

It is almost* as bad as having expansion packs planned before release.

*A big almost

quote: But then, you don't like the fact that there are patches (and updates/new features!) scheduled, and that you don't want patches to be planned before release....yet you find it normal that good developers have after-release support ("not something that should need promising"). So the "good developers" obviously expect it, and most likely also plan for it.

Good developers will plan on supprting the game, but they won't have a dozen patches lined up before the game is released, and they do not release a patch every couple of days. After-release support should be bug fixes and improvements - not a million little updates of new pirate protection.

quote: Then why condemn Stardock for being open about it and offering a lot better support then most developers?

Quantity does not equal quality.

Anyways, I'm condemning them for the way they are supprting the game - not for supporting it.

	11-04-2003 20:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Nirvana_CN Dont forget that the year of updates contains a *FREE* Expansion pack!

I guess I spoke too soon about planing expansion packs before release.

Atleast they have the decency not to charge for it, but that is still content that should be in the original game. Why have they got to release the game in bits and pieces over an entire year (or more)?

And what about someone who doesn't have an internet connection? (But I guess they've probably all stoped playing computer games out of sheer frustration and disgust by now. )

	11-04-2003 21:12									#20
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Osweld

Most of these "Patches" are actually updates to the game.

We suggest Ideas, they add them into the game. Now im sure you can twist that into saying that those ideas should have been in the game anyway.

Dont worry, your one in a million, there is always one person who will find things to complain about.

Your inherant anger should be directed at Moo3 in reality, as thats a game where there are many people with your views and you might make a difference there!

How many games do you see whose fans suggest features, new units, new events, UI ideas, and 2 days later they appear in the lastest update?

	11-04-2003 21:25									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: that is still content that should be in the original game.

would you wait 6 months for it? and who determines what "should" be in a game? just because it possible to be coded, the developer has to add it no matter what resources you have?!?

i think you just want to argue....

	11-04-2003 22:33									#22
	Remove this text

quote: they've also told us that there's still a lot not there.

That's just being honest.

quote: Quantity does not equal quality.

But they do offer quality.
They don't just fix bugs like all the other developers do. They also add suggestions made by players...

quote: i think you just want to argue....

* Lemmy agrees

	11-04-2003 22:44									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Nirvana_CN Osweld Most of these "Patches" are actually updates to the game. We suggest Ideas, they add them into the game. Now im sure you can twist that into saying that those ideas should have been in the game anyway.

If that's what they wanted, they could have held a (semi)open beta test and gotten feedback before releasing the game. But that isn't my beef here, it's the "patch to annoy the pirates" strategy that bothers me.

quote: How many games do you see whose fans suggest features, new units, new events, UI ideas, and 2 days later they appear in the lastest update?

I can think of a few - not neccisarily two days, but still the same. I can think of a lot more where the fans can do all that themselves.

quote: would you wait 6 months for it? and who determines what "should" be in a game? just because it possible to be coded, the developer has to add it no matter what resources you have?!?

Actually, Galciv doesn't interest me at all so it wouldn't matter to me one way or the other. But yes, I would wait for it - I don't mind waiting for games. As they say, good things come to those who wait.

The developers determine what should be in a game, and they obviously think this should be in it, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

quote: i think you just want to argue....

What's wrong with that?

	11-04-2003 23:03									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Actually, Galciv doesn't interest me at all so it wouldn't matter to me one way or the other. But yes, I would wait for it - I don't mind waiting for games. As they say, good things come to those who wait.

It doesn't interest you at all? Good. THEN GO AWAY. Trolls we can do without.

quote: The developers determine what should be in a game, and they obviously think this should be in it, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Boy am I glad you don't design games, if you think developers are the sole determining factor of game content. A game designed that way would stink.

quote: What's wrong with that?

About a million things, but I wouldn't want to further waste the time of these boards and its readers (like you have) by continuing a pointless argument with you. Constructive discourse is one of the highest forms of communication , and deliberate, obnoxious argument starting one of the lowest forms, aside from possibly a Britney Spears song.

	11-04-2003 23:52									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon It doesn't interest you at all? Good. THEN GO AWAY. Trolls we can do without.

The game doesn't interest me, but this subject does.

quote: Boy am I glad you don't design games, if you think developers are the sole determining factor of game content. A game designed that way would stink.

I'm sorry, but that's generally how it works. That is why they are called developers - they develope the game. Of course, sometimes the publishers will have certain "demands".

quote: About a million things, but I wouldn't want to further waste the time of these boards and its readers (like you have) by continuing a pointless argument with you. Constructive discourse is one of the highest forms of communication , and deliberate, obnoxious argument starting one of the lowest forms, aside from possibly a Britney Spears song.

That's good, when you want to join in the debate instead of trolling you can come back.

quote: the thing is that it's good as it is now. in which case there are two options a) spend money for six months on improving it according to what the dev.team thinks is good and then release it b) release it and spend money for six months on improving it according to what THE PEOPLE (who are already enjoying a good game) and the dev.team thinks is good and then give the updates for free, extending players' value for their money i like option b much much better

Well, as I said, a beta test is a much better way of geting feedback. But this is geting side tracked from what I was talking about, I don't mind that they are supporting the game - that is good. I just don't like the way they are doing it. My original point was that releasing multitudes of patches is not going to have any signifigant effect on piracy, and inconveniances pirates and customers alike.

	12-04-2003 00:20									#26
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quote: My original point was that releasing multitudes of patches is not going to have any signifigant effect on piracy, and inconveniances pirates and customers alike.

as customers can choose how often they want to update, it's not an inconveniance. and if you argue that if the update is out there, the customer will be "forced" to update, then i'm sorry but stardock is just a company making a game, it's not out there to put some willpower into people

	12-04-2003 01:13									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Lemmy There aren't any features mentioned on the box that you don't get. *cough*civ3 multiplayer*cough*

Looking at my Civ3 box, I don't see the work multiplayer anywhere.

	12-04-2003 01:20									#28
	Tired of ads?

GalCiv sucks my willpower to participate in everyday life every time I play. I go to work and see Drengins at the manager cubes, Yors in my server room. All I can think of is timing my terror star tech with enough constructors to build it so I can take out the department that's delaying my deployment and keeping me from playing GalCiv.

Where am I? Why am I still at work? Damn it, I gotta wrap this up so I can get outta here...

	12-04-2003 02:26									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: My original point was that releasing multitudes of patches is not going to have any signifigant effect on piracy, and inconveniances pirates and customers alike. as customers can choose how often they want to update, it's not an inconveniance. and if you argue that if the update is out there, the customer will be "forced" to update, then i'm sorry but stardock is just a company making a game, it's not out there to put some willpower into people

Well, so can pirates. It is an inconveniance to some people, others may not mind - that's not really the point, the point is that it affects customers as much as it does pirates.


Oh, and you just had to create a new topic just as I was trying to steer it back to piracy, didn't you? Now I'm going to end up threadjacking another thread.

	12-04-2003 02:40									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Exactly my point, they released it unfinished - a whole year before it's finsihed, apparently - and plan completing it through a slew of patches. Actually, I don't know what these updates are, but I doubt they're much - probably not a year's worth of work. Any developer that has patches planned before the game is even released gets a big thumbs-down from me.

That's pretty absurd.

Have you even played the game? The game, out of the box, is very complete. It's stable, feature rich, and plays pretty well. The reviews of the game have been based on what's in the box and it's averaging over 4 stars.

By updating the game for a year after release, we can add NEW features based on player feedback. Features that might have been suggested yesterday or suggested during the late beta that couldn't possibly be put in.

But in both cases, we are adding features to the game based on customer requests. Not pre-ordained features.

I think you should seriously look around at other games. Are they more "complete" than GalCiv? Certainly not. But they aren't being updated after release.

It's a bit ironic that someone would actually consider free updates after release to somehow be a bad thing. If more people had your attitude, you'd see fewer updates after release.