13-04-2003 20:37									#1
	How can you possibly be an athiest? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maybe it's just a matter of semantics but if athiests claim to believe in science, how can they be athiests as athiesm (defined as believing in no god) is blind faith as there is no proff that there is not a God?


thanks

	13-04-2003 20:42									#2
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Define "believe".

	13-04-2003 20:42									#3
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There's not proof that there is a God either. Even if there is a higher power, there's no proof it's your God. It may even be gods.

I've yet to hear any argument for a God that can't be refuted nor any experience that proves God beyond any doubt. Ergo, no God as far as I'm currently concerned.

	13-04-2003 20:42									#4
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Or to put it in a less negative light, atheism is blind acceptance that the laws of physics are applicable everywhere (and at every time), with absolutely no evidence.

	13-04-2003 20:43									#5
	Re: How can you possibly be an athiest? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer but if athiests claim to believe in science

If you mean atheists they donīt claim to "believe" in science. IIRC Atheism means the absence of belief in God, not neccessarily the belief in something else as substitute.

However, there may be people who really "believe" in science, but that is another story.

	13-04-2003 20:45									#6
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* Ari Rahikkala puts up a sign: "Don't throw bones under the bridge", then climbs into a foxhole *

	13-04-2003 20:47									#7
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My bad... I didn't mean believe in science as in a christian believes in God... I meant if Athiests claim that there is no God based on Science then that would be invalid because science can not disprove the existance of God.

By saying that there is without a doubt no God places athiests in the same category as fundamentalists... they got blind faith in what can not be proven or disproven

	13-04-2003 20:50									#8
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As far as I'm concerned, atheism is the belief there is no god. Such a belief don't take its source necessarily from science. An atheist can be skeptical about science too. At least, I am (I think the belief our science can explain everything is as absurd as the belief in God).

	13-04-2003 20:50									#9
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It certainly is a matter of semantics, in my eyes. People on both sides of this take things way too litterally.

	13-04-2003 20:50									#10
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Since the burden of proof lies with the proponent of an assertion, we'll wait for the believers to show us that there is a god.

	13-04-2003 20:53									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer By saying that there is without a doubt no God places athiests in the same category as fundamentalists... they got blind faith in what can not be proven or disproven

No, it hasnīt to do with faith, they just refuse to believe in something without having positive proof about its existance.

	13-04-2003 21:13									#12
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Maybe it's just a matter of semantics but if athiests claim to believe in science, how can they be athiests as athiesm (defined as believing in no god) is blind faith as there is no proff that there is not a God?

It's not as if i have a giant hole in my personal worldview with "Insert God Here - Failure to Use a Genuine Hewlett-Packard God May Damage the Universe and Void the Warranty" imprinted in it.

One doesn't need blind faith to ignore a philosophical assertion that contradicts all the facts one knows about the Universe.

I meant if Athiests claim that there is no God based on Science then that would be invalid because science can not disprove the existance of God.

It can't disprove the existence of invisible and intangible pink dragons named Lance, but I don't hear you people harping on about that.

(I think the belief our science can explain everything is as absurd as the belief in God)

Well, it can explain everything in this Universe and that's good enough for me.

	13-04-2003 21:16									#13
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Who cares, Albert ?

Let the little bastards burn for eternity.

	13-04-2003 21:18									#14
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Albert Speer - that is why I tend to respect agnostics more than atheists on initial meeting.

	13-04-2003 21:20									#15
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Albert Speer - that is why I tend to respect agnostics more than atheists on initial meeting.

Agnostics are just afraid of making clear decisions

	13-04-2003 21:23									#16
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quote: If you mean atheists they donīt claim to "believe" in science. IIRC Atheism means the absence of belief in God, not neccessarily the belief in something else as substitute.

Exactly!
What often gets missed in these debates is the difference between Weak and Strong Belief. Weak Belief is basically "I'm pretty sure X is true since I've never seen any real evidence to the contrary" and Strong Belief is "I know absolutely that X is true, it is completely impossible for X to be wrong." Most atheists have a Weak Belief that God doesn't exist, which is a good thing since it is very stupid to have a strong belief in anything since you could be a brain in a jar and what you think is reality could be manufactured by scientists running tests on you, except what Hume calls "relationships of ideas" which are basically if/then statements like "if all the basic axioms of mathematics are true, then 2 + 2 = 4."

	13-04-2003 21:23									#17
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I am not an atheist. I don't care about the whole issue. Even if god/gods/whatever exist it/they/he/she/whatever couldn't care less about what I do.

	13-04-2003 21:25									#18
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Oh, and just for the record

"Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes in the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist."

Academician Prokhor Zakharov
"For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

	13-04-2003 21:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am not an atheist. I don't care about the whole issue. Even if god/gods/whatever exist it/they/he/she/whatever couldn't care less about what I do.

Well, Iīd say if God exists, he wouldnīt like to be ignored by you...

	13-04-2003 21:28									#20
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There's no such thing as "taking a side" in this issue. I believe whatever has the highest probability of being true - and I believe it as much as that probability.

Since science seems to work in the same way as I do, hence I trust science more. Religion, on the other hand, does not work in the same way as I do, so I do not trust it.

Science does not assert the existence or nonexistence of a deity. There is absolutely no evidence pointing either way. Hence I consider it arrogant to "believe" in either case in the face of zero evidence. That makes me agnostic.

	13-04-2003 21:29									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Oh, and just for the record "Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes in the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." Academician Prokhor Zakharov "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

	13-04-2003 21:32									#22
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quote: That makes me agnostic.

Not really, as Lovecraft puts it:

quote: "I certainly can't see any sensible position to assume aside from that of complete scepticism tempered by a leaning toward that which existing evidence makes most probable. All I say is that I think it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world , or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe, and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligble moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of rational evidence I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist. The chance's of theism's truth being to my mind so microscopically small, I would be a pedant and a hypocrite to call myself anything else.

	13-04-2003 21:35									#23
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Im a deist.

That way if there is a god, no matter which one, I can get half a point for believing in him/her/them.

	13-04-2003 21:38									#24
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That makes you a wimp.

	13-04-2003 21:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Oh, and just for the record "Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes in the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist." Academician Prokhor Zakharov "For I Have Tasted The Fruit"

i second the

	13-04-2003 21:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Well, it can explain everything in this Universe and that's good enough for me.

But don't you see that believing in that assumption is as sceintifically unfounded as a belief in God? You just have faith in a different religion.

	13-04-2003 21:50									#27
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Josh, the difference i see though is that science is more dynamic in its ability to change and thats what seperates it from religion. thats one of the things that makes religions unique is that their core ideas and beliefs dont change over a large amount of time.

and thats why when it comes to matters where belief in god might be percieved to conflict with science i choose science simply because scientific thought allows the theory to change over time to be most objective rather than never changing to uphold the legitimacy of the religion.

	13-04-2003 22:08									#28
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I'm with Josh on this one.

MRT : religion is adaptable too. Religion has been tweaked by priests since its very existence, and it continues to be tweaked with the various interpretations of the holy books. The holy books are an object of study and analysis for religious people, just like gravity is an object of study and analysis for physicists.
You wouldn't say "science cannot evolve because gravity has always been the same and won't change", won't you ? It is the analysis of the gravity that changes. And it is the analysis of the holy books that changes too.

	13-04-2003 22:13									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh But don't you see that believing in that assumption is as sceintifically unfounded as a belief in God? You just have faith in a different religion.

Rogan, your error lies in assuming that science is about a set of laws. It is not. Science is about a methodology, an approach to acquire knowledge of nature. Hence, I am not assuming the laws we have now are going to explain everything in this Universe, but without this approach, we cannot hope to do so one day.

	13-04-2003 22:14									#30
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Every time someone asks this kind of a "How" questions (Fr. ex, well, "How can you possibly be an atheist?" instead of "Why are you an atheist?") I have a terrible urge to just snap my fingers repeatedly and say "Like this! See? See? See?"