14-04-2003 02:57									#1
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I understand that the mechanics of contact between players can be somewhat complicated (only certain types of units etc.).
My question is, "Is it possible for one player to make contact with another & gain their comm. freq. without the contacted player knowing?" ie. by making contact & then withdrawing beyond the units visual radius before the turn is completed?

Hobbes

	14-04-2003 05:02									#2
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No, i don't think so. in my experience, as soon as i move a unit next to the AI, they immediately come up on the commlink. the only way you can contact them without them knowing you have their frequency is by building the empath guild, getting the frequency in a pod or buying it from someone else.

	14-04-2003 05:04									#3
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quote: Originally posted by TKG No, i don't think so. in my experience, as soon as i move a unit next to the AI, they immediately come up on the commlink. the only way you can contact them without them knowing you have their frequency is by building the empath guild, getting the frequency in a pod or buying it from someone else.

Deep radar works for this, ie you can see them but they don't call you up becuase you aren't adjacent. Same thing with sensors and IIRC sonar pods.

	14-04-2003 05:35									#4
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To be more specific, I was referring to another human player. Would it work then?

I am referring to a specific game in which another human player has my comm freq. (or says they do) yet I have not ever seen their units. Now obviously they could have podded my comm. or traded it from an AI; however the player in question insists that the aforementioned scenario is possible.

Hobbes

	14-04-2003 06:16									#5
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Never heard of this...but I think it's possible.

	14-04-2003 06:32									#6
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Remember that probe units do not carry flags identifying which faction they are on. Also, a sea unit could have pulled next to one of your bases, then back out of range, all within 4 moves.

	14-04-2003 13:52									#7
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In PBEM it is of course absolutely possible and natural, and it happens indeed.

I can't see what's puzzling you, what would stop a natural mechanics of the game from occurring.
Maybe you thought that contact wasn't "calculated" until the end of turn?
No, contact is contact, and it triggers instantly when conditions are met. But then also movement is movement.

If the contacting unit has more than 1-tile movement (Rovers, infantry along road/river, worms in fungus, sea units), it can easily withdraw again outside the opponent's visual scope after having got *adjacent* to trigger contact.

Remember that:

- bases or sensors (or radar units) increase your visual scope: if you play pbem with the option to display all human commlinks always, you can (opposite to the topic issue ) SEE an enemy unit AND NOT having made contact. Many unexperienced players have called me in pbem only to realise later they had "jumpstarted" the contact

- an empty base too is enough to trigger a contact, if you get *adjacent* to it

- I am not positive about this one, but I think that a mere flyover with an air unit is instead not enough: you'd allegedly need an air *attack* to trigger a contact...

quote: Hobbes: another human player has my comm freq. (or says they do)

- comm freqs are ALWAYS RECIPROCAL. If player A has B's freq, THEN B *does* have A's freq, from the very same moment A had acquired his. This regardless of human/AI.
EG is no exception to this, in the sense that EG DOES NOT give you freqs, but it allows you to bypass the lack thereof indeed. So, if one calls you and you don't have his freq, this can be only thanks to the EG

- in a pbem with more than two humans and their commlinks always displayed, you can test the possession of someone's freq by fake-offering it to a 3rd human player. If you can offer it, then you have it (provided the other two haven't come yet in contact neither).
Otherwise, the safest method to assess whether you have a human player's freq, is to save your turn halfway, go into alpha.txt (or alphax.txt) and toggle the "human commlink always displayed in pbem" flag (near #RULES section bottom), and then resume your turn and check.
Except EG case (which possession wold be evident in F5), if the other player has your freq, then you can also call him back from the commlink menu. If that way you don't see his commlink there instead, then he cannot have legally contacted you neither.

Final note:
we all know that AI's freqs can be obtained from pods, in single player.
Well, in my 4-years pbem experience, I have NEVER personally seen or heard reported that you can find human commlinks as well.
For that matter, I don't think I've ever got a commlink from a pod at all, human or AI, in a pbem.
This is not a conlcusive proof, but for me it's a strong suspect at least.

	14-04-2003 18:39									#8
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There are any number of scenarios where another human could meet you and you not see their units. Ships can move in range and then out again quite easily.

But I believe I have always left behind evidence of the meeting in the sense that, even without initiating contact, the diplomatic status changes to "truce" in the commlinks. I have assumed that this status change occurrs for the other player as well. Therefore thay will know that you have likely been in their vicinity

	15-04-2003 01:58									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber There are any number of scenarios where another human could meet you and you not see their units. Ships can move in range and then out again quite easily. But I believe I have always left behind evidence of the meeting in the sense that, even without initiating contact, the diplomatic status changes to "truce" in the commlinks. I have assumed that this status change occurrs for the other player as well. Therefore thay will know that you have likely been in their vicinity

OK, so if our status is still at vendetta, then they haven't physically made contact with me? Would the status change if the comm. freq. was obtained via an AI?

	15-04-2003 02:04									#10
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Not if you haven't met. If you've not contacted a rival faction, you shouldn't have ANY diplomatic status.

	15-04-2003 04:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by H0bbes OK, so if our status is still at vendetta, then they haven't physically made contact with me? Would the status change if the comm. freq. was obtained via an AI?

Odd. I did not think anyone could be at vendetta unless they met . . . unless they got your comm at the price of declaring vendetta on you. To be STILL at vendetta means that something happened to put you at vendetta to begin with. The default status I recall is "truce"


I may have to test this but I was always under the impression you would have no comm status with a human in a pbem until you get their comm freq at which time it moves to something like "informal truce " or something. I may have to look at one of my old turns and try to find one where I first made contact with another human controlled faction. I believe the move to truce is automatic but I will try to confirm this.

I think though that another party at vendetta with you either declared war at the behest of someone else or got caught probing you

	15-04-2003 12:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Odd. I did not think anyone could be at vendetta unless they met . . . unless they got your comm at the price of declaring vendetta on you. To be STILL at vendetta means that something happened to put you at vendetta to begin with. The default status I recall is "truce" I may have to test this but I was always under the impression you would have no comm status with a human in a pbem until you get their comm freq at which time it moves to something like "informal truce " or something. I may have to look at one of my old turns and try to find one where I first made contact with another human controlled faction. I believe the move to truce is automatic but I will try to confirm this. I think though that another party at vendetta with you either declared war at the behest of someone else or got caught probing you

I assumed we were at vendetta because I thought that was the way the H2H was set up. That was my error. Originally there was no status between us, now there is a vendetta. Specifically, 2136 = no status; 2137 = vendetta.
So...... I could have been probed or it was declared because of AI pressure within that same turn that my comm. freq. was gained via contact or an AI and our status changed (briefly) to truce.

Interesting.

Hobbes

	15-04-2003 14:25									#13
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Simply put, at first contact your status changes from "no" status to "some" status.
It defaults to (informal?) truce, but the first contact can also directly cause some other status (indeed Vendetta, if the newcomer immediately performs hostile actions against you. It's true that between the contact and the hostile action there is one moment of default truce, but only during the attacker's turn).

Incidentally, remember that the "pbem probing bug" lets the "prober" in his turn to choose whether the "probed" goes vendetta or forgives the action.
PBEM etiquette (and Apolyton tournament rules) states tho that choosing vendetta is mandatory for the prober unless he has explicit permission from the probed.

Conversely, there's a significant "contact feature":
The onset itself of a state of Vendetta is enough to establish contact, EVEN WITHOUT actual physical contact on the map.
How could this happen?
You could "remotely" trigger Vendetta by hostile base-founding or by hostile terraforming. But I figure those two actions require awareness of the enemy borders, and I presume you can't have such awareness without prior contact, so that could be a comma-22 clause.
You can remotely trigger Vendetta by withdrawal request via the commlink menu, but this requires borders awareness too, and some pbem rules ban the practice.
For sure instead, you can enter Vendetta with a player you never met, if he attacks one of your Pactmates. That occurred in OWO's first pbem, and as freqs are reciprocal as I poitned out, that trick was also enough for the attacker to gain his victim's pactmate freq, the last one he missed to call the first council (and make me governor)
___

Anyway.

If the issue is about *detecting* a contact status, all the hints above are just sidetricks, the only and ultimate sure method is to properly set the human commlink pbem flag in alpha.txt.

If the issue is about understanding which mechanics had caused an unseen player to trigger an undoubtedly existing contact status, as Flubber said there can be many scenarios allowing that.
I have not considered framing-induced vendetta, for instance.
Rest assured tho that AFAIK there is no way to cheat diplo status, that is if a status exists, that can only have been correctly triggered via legal game mechanics.

	15-04-2003 16:26									#14
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ummm .. . what marione said


As usual marione has given a thorough airing of an issue and made me think about even more ways to initiate contact

	15-04-2003 19:12									#15
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That 'informal truce' status change has just happened to me. The other player arrived by sea and moved away. Does that mean we can now communicate.

	15-04-2003 19:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules That 'informal truce' status change has just happened to me. The other player arrived by sea and moved away. Does that mean we can now communicate.

yes-- whether or not you can see the unit, your people met his people and communications are now open

	16-04-2003 11:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by MariOne (italics added) You could "remotely" trigger Vendetta by hostile base-founding or by hostile terraforming. But I figure those two actions require awareness of the enemy borders, and I presume you can't have such awareness without prior contact, so that could be a comma-22 clause.

In all my games, all solo, faction borders were visible as soon as I encountered them, regardless of whether I'd seen any of their bases or units. I often purposely avoid crossing them, specifically to avoid initiating contact, usually in one of these forms (from Script.txt):

quote: ##GOAWAY0 #xs 440 #caption $CAPTION7 "Your forces have been spotted suspiciously close to BASENAME0. Do not further test my patience."

quote: #GOAWAY1 #xs 440 #caption $CAPTION7 "Your troop buildup near BASENAME0 has not gone unnoticed. Withdraw your forces immediately or I shall annihilate them."

quote: #GOAWAY2 #xs 440 #caption $CAPTION7 "Your incursions into FACTIONADJ1 territory have not gone unnoticed. I suggest you withdraw your forces at once."

I've seen all of these at one time or another in several games without first seeing any of their units or bases — and not by entering any base's production area (which is also visible as soon as encountered) — but simply by stepping across the territory boundary line.
While it is more likely to be (but not always) a faction with aggression set to "1" in the faction.txt, even they don't always complain, and often first diplomatic contact indeed occurs only upon moving adjacent to a base or unit.

	16-04-2003 12:59									#18
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Hmmm.... that's an interesting contribution from direct experience, thanks.
OTOH I also am rather positive that, even when I *know* I have a neighbour (I see *my own* border dashed line *closer* to me than it should be), I do NOT see the *other* dashed line (i.e. my *neighbour's* border running alongside mine, in *his* color) until I also make contact.
IIRC just seeing him in the distance is not enough to make his border appear. For sure, founding a base well inside his territory is not a hostile action if I don't explicitly see his colored borders first. And that I keep well in mind in first encounters: avoid contact if this could give me time to plop a base before "realising" someone had already "claimed" that territory... (not easy to achieve, you often stumble in someone before you can avoid him).

I have to say that I sure have less accumulated experience than you against AIs and their behavior, having mainly played pbems.

I might thus be wrong, but this is for sure worth investigating in a more methodic way (for those who are really interested in the issue), putting particular attention on the commlink possession and on the appearance of the opponent's (not just yours) border.