15-04-2003 03:26									#31
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They will be building Archers and Spearmen in ~8 turns if we send our Galleys up the W coast... so let them build us Leader fodder.

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If they hit us with 15 Immortals in 6 turns? If they are going to wait for that road, that's how long it takes them to hit Arashi 9, though they could come down into the flat in 5 turns... which even though we get first shots may hurt us more (depends on how many spears they have along).

I think we lose 1-3 Pikes (after they get damaged, the Swords/Med Infantry start taking shots), 5 to all our Swords/Med Infantry (either defending or counterattacking), and a few fast movers. They might have a few units left that make it back onto the Mountains, no real shot at taking the city.

We should have 4 Pikes in Arashi (or Arashi9) at that point, another one headed there.

If they try to bull their way through Arashi 9, it's pretty much the same, only their Spears survive, and more of our Med Inf/WC's do.

With 20 Immortals at that point, it's a pretty close thing.

(all this assumes worst case where Hurricane isn't producing units, and the 3 Swords there stay there)

	15-04-2003 04:41									#32
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Does anyone have any idea how long GoW's been working on their wonder? Since they're building in their capital, they couldn't have been using a palace prebuild before they went public, so we could get a good idea of whether or not they're likely to have too many shields to use the Oracle or Hanging Gardens (if they have Monarchy, which seems somewhat unlikely) as an interim build.

I'd rather not remove the Great Library option from contention quite yet; I haven't voted yet, which would bring the Great Library up to three votes if I'd vote for it. What might be better is an "order of preference" poll listing the three wonders in all possible orders of preference. (I wouldn't be shocked if the Great Library ends up in the middle for an awful lot of people.)

One last thing, regarding the Great Lighthouse: Even invading between Astronomy and Magnetism, the Great Lighthouse would let us deliver reinforcements faster. I don't accept the interpretation that if we invade in that timeframe using caravels, the Great Lighthouse has no significant value.

	15-04-2003 04:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay One last thing, regarding the Great Lighthouse: Even invading between Astronomy and Magnetism, the Great Lighthouse would let us deliver reinforcements faster. I don't accept the interpretation that if we invade in that timeframe using caravels, the Great Lighthouse has no significant value.

True, in terms of invading RP the Lighthouse is very valuable, since there are several 4 tile coast-to-coast crossings and we wouldn't lose time for intermediate turns, because the distance is bigger than a galley (or caravel) can go in one turn.

	15-04-2003 06:50									#34
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I'll just say that in this short time i was checking around i'm leaning towards the: "get it over with" wonders- we just need the units fast.

Vox may or may not be a threat worthy of giving up a decent wonder like Sun-Tzu's for, but they're not the only ones we have to deal with- we're now in a risk of war with just about any Bobian, and besides- won't you just love walking over Vox ASAP?

We could use the extra units fast to show the world who's the big boss around here, and who's side they should pick- Lego and GoW are both key teams to our victory IMHO, and probably a key to winning over RP- we have to show them we are going to prevail, and prevail in big time!

My vote goes to the Lighthouse.

	15-04-2003 06:52									#35
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For some reason, it wouldn't let me vote- just add my vote for the Lighthouse option.

	15-04-2003 06:55									#36
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What is RP's reaction to us building the Great Lighthouse going to be once they get the coastline from GoW's maps?

I'm not sure if I like the Great Lighthouse more or less because it can be used just as a 'threat' to RP. A sort of 'We can hit you in 2 turns, your forces would take forever to get to us'. Might be worthwhile just to weaken their border as they'd need to keep troops in the E.

	15-04-2003 07:07									#37
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It would also greatly increase the value of our friendship from an ND POV.

	15-04-2003 09:03									#38
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The lighthouse really flies under people's radars. Just look at Dominae's earlier post. In the right hands, the lighthouse is deadly. This map can't take full advantage of the l'house, but it does do some great things for us that while not giving us an obvious advantage like free baracks or techs.

aside from the aforementioned reasons, even if we didn't invade RP, it would cut down on the number of galleys used to patrol our coasts, as each could travel a square further per turn.

	15-04-2003 09:14									#39
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel The lighthouse really flies under people's radars. Just look at Dominae's earlier post.

It's not flying under my radar: I'm perfectly aware it's there, I just think it's too minor to attend to.

Do we seriously plan to launch an invasion on Bob before Astronomy? When we do invade, will we be building a lot of boats in order to bring our offensive across in one big punch, or are we going to take many turns to ferry our forces across with a smaller navy? I assume the answer to the first question is No, given how fast tech is progressing, and will continue to progess. I also assume the answer to the first part of the second question is Yes (and the second part No). Therefore the Great Lighthouse is of little use to us.

It is of even less use to the other teams (apart from Vox, if they survive). Forget about it for now, we can pick it up whenever we like (maybe never).


Dominae

	15-04-2003 09:27									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae It's not flying under my radar: I'm perfectly aware its there, I just think its too minor to attend to.

I phrased that poorly, I was referring to what you said about how RP and the rest of 'em would view it, not you. My bad

	15-04-2003 09:35									#41
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I love it when I get to ask stupid questions here...

Sun Tzu is cross-continent, yes?

	15-04-2003 09:35									#42
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sleepy: no problem.

Is an invasion by RP a real possibility, or are we just "worst-case scenario" theorizing here? I'll grant that if RP is going to focus on attacking us instead of continuing to expand peacefully into the lands immediately available to them, the Great Lighthouse would be useful to us from a denial standpoint. But, as is clear from the tone of my last sentence, I really doubt RP is going to appear on our shores anytime soon.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 09:36									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I love it when I get to ask stupid questions here... Sun Tzu is cross-continent, yes?

no, at least i think no

	15-04-2003 09:37									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae sleepy: no problem. Is an invasion by RP a real possibility, or are we just "worst-case scenario" theorizing here? I'll grant that if RP is going to focus on attacking us instead of continuing to expand peacefully into the lands immediately available to them, the Great Lighthouse would be useful to us from a denial standpoint. But, as is clear from the tone of my last sentence, I really doubt RP is going to appear on our shores anytime soon. Dominae

Yeah, I doubt RP is going to invade. I think instead they are just bankrolling Vox and will withdraw support towards vox's demise, then they will pretend nothing was happening.

	15-04-2003 09:37									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I love it when I get to ask stupid questions here... Sun Tzu is cross-continent, yes?

Not stupid at all, I checked the same thing myself earlier today (we cannot both be stupid, can we?!).

Sun Tzu only applies to one continent.

If it were cross-continent, I believe the decision would be a lot easier.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 09:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Not stupid at all, I checked the same thing myself earlier today (we cannot both be stupid, can we?!).

No comment!

quote: Originally posted by Dominae If it were cross-continent, I believe the decision would be a lot easier.

I definately agree. taht would be lotsa barracks fo sho

	15-04-2003 09:45									#47
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For RP, they'd have to build their fleet and the Great Lighthouse in the same city (size 4 currently). Can't really see that happening at this point.

	15-04-2003 11:11									#48
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I might someday regret it, but I voted Sun Tsu.

Afterall, we are not in this to survive, but to win therefore we can't allow these free and instant barracks to fall into the hands of any Bobian.

	15-04-2003 12:25									#49
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-1 for Great Library
+1 for Great Lighthouse

In the interests of getting a wonder decided upon that frees up Hurricane for unit production now.

	15-04-2003 17:55									#50
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Heh, I voted Library, btw.

But it seems pretty clear that the Library is running a fairly distant third. Blah. I really like that wonder.

Therefore I suggest dropping it and revoting with only the Lighthouse & Sun Tzu. EDIT: nevermind, Nathan is way ahead of me.

-Arrian