14-04-2003 07:58									#1
	Our new Evil Plan Suffering from ads?

Well guys, an interesting idea came up today in the chatroom between myself, GhengisFarb and Ennet.

Basically the idea is this:

We get GS to agree to a fake war between them and us. Just like the ficticious Vox invasion of Bob, we fake a landing by Horsemen against GS territory, they start a public outcry in the main forum and we add to the flame wars.

Why?

The idea is to make GS think that there is a major threat looming against us, in this case a possible ND invasion. Of course this is a fake too, but since no-one knows our true relationship, GS right know thinks that ND is our prime threat and if they see that we have troops figthing in Little Bob they shall take the opportunity to attack us right now before our UU comes into play.

Of course, an ND attack (fake of course) would be all that we need for an excuse to launch our war against RP. Since RP will probably not last too long against us two, after the war we send troops (hopefully Riders) to Little Bob to finish up GS, after all, by that time with RP knocked out we will care little about the reputation hit that will incurr. We might not even need to take out GS if Vox finishes them off before, if the result is a stalemate, GoW intervention should be able to tip the balance.


IMO this plan is brilliant.


1) It gets rid of RP and later GS

2) It does not initially violate any agreement with GS or Vox (Vox will think we are playing our part of the deal with our "invasion" of GS)

3) It also does not violate the RP agreement (which we haven't signed anyway) as technically ND is attacking us.

Anyway... that's pretty much it. Please comment.

	14-04-2003 09:25									#2
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I want to go to a republic as soon as possible. I was against it originally, because I feared that we could not defend ourselves if we were ever attacked. (Vox mainly)
But we seem to have a opportunity to switch now ….
Vox & GS are locked into a war until death.
ND & RP and facing off.
And Lego are too busy building pyramids.

This is a unique window where I think we should move to anarchy as soon as our 6 Voxian horsemen are ready.

Now, with a 4/5/6 turns of anarchy…with a lot of horsemen on the water…with us still not having our core cities settled. ….I am not sure if we can be ready for an earlier RP war.
I don’t know about ND…but I thought they wanted to use their UU as well.
I doubt they will have the forces ready….this was the reason why we insisted on a 30 turn warning.

We must also be aware, that RP have the units ready for a war. They want the war early.

I would much rather we make war on our terms, at a time of our choosing, and with units of our choosing. This means Riders.


With regards to not helping Vox with GS….Let us not underestimate GS. They are in a golden age, and can pump out war chariots pretty quickly. They will have feudalism and therefore pikes.
A vox win is not guaranteed. It is possible, that the Vox invasion could be repelled. (Not defeated, but certainly repelled)

This could mean an early stalemate…Vox will be wanting to exit the war, and GS will probably want to have a peaceful GA…so these guys may just call it quits.

Vox will be after our blood, for not helping….and if our forces are south fighting RP. Vox could drop their remaining Immortals on our land, and cause absolute havoc.

And another thing…we agreed to swap maps with Vox each turn, whenever either of us had new GS territory. If we have a fake invasion of GS, Vox will expect a map.



Master Zen….your evil plans are amazing, but I would much rather stick with the old plan.
GS will be destroyed against a Vox/GoW war (Even if they survive, they will be weakened and want to spend the rest of their GA in peace to rebuild)
RP, is similarly dead in a ND/GoW war….especially with our UU’s.

RP may get a little suspicious if we insist on waiting for our UU, but we just have to explain that we do not have the units available now to mount an effective war. We may have to tell them that we can guarantee that we will get Chivalry before ND….and that we can declare war at that point.
Of course, we give Chivalry to ND as well….but RP wont know that.



So my vote would be…stick with the original plan.
Republic ASAP.
War with GS using our horsemen as resource denial units.
War with RP using Riders.

Then…I would suggest a 3 civ alliance to kill Lego.
Then GoW & Vox to kill ND…(sell it as ensuring a Native Apolyton winner)
And then we kill Vox at our pleasure.

	14-04-2003 09:32									#3
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P.S. - I really think this evil plan needs to be kept and posted in the main forum with an award nomination.

Battle Plan with the most diversionary fake wars in a row....

	14-04-2003 10:09									#4
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it wasn't just my idea...

shortly after discussing this plan, alva and nbarclay were invited to our chatroom and GF discussed the idea with them. alva thought that GS would not accept it because of their so-called "honor code" (yeah right) but asked us to formally present them with the proposal


Anyways, here's the chat long (only the part between us and GS) which I was going to post but forgot to...

quote: [16:30] [alva] So, what's up [16:30] [GhengisFarb] How's the Vox war going? [16:30] [alva] They seems to organize their units [16:30] [GhengisFarb] ?? [16:31] [alva] their not at our front door yet [16:31] [alva] Maybe they are waiting for the units thr recalled from BOB [16:31] [GhengisFarb] We were wondering if your team would help us with a little ruse. [16:32] [alva] Can't promise anything [16:32] [GhengisFarb] Their aren't any Vox units on Bob [16:32] [alva] will take into consideration of course [16:32] [alva] never have been? [16:33] * nbarclay has joined #GOW [16:33] [GhengisFarb] We want to land a Horseman in GS land and start a fake war with GS. We would need your team to take a screenshot and scream like Bloody Murder in the Public Forum about how we backstabbed you [16:33] [alva] ah [16:33] [nbarclay] Alva invited me to join here. Hope that's okay. [16:34] [GhengisFarb] We want ND and Roleplay to think we invade GS with all our troops and that we are ripe to be invaded ourselves. [16:34] [alva] auch, that's one big favor, why? [16:34] [alva] when? (before riders?) [16:34] [GhengisFarb] We think one of them is planning to attack us and we want them to do it without realizing we are waiting for them. [16:35] [GhengisFarb] Not for a few turns, we'll land the Horseman whereever you tell us to. It will be a tile of your choosing. [16:35] [alva] you think you can get them to believe you invaded us without riders? [16:36] [GhengisFarb] If your team brings it up, yes. Roleplay has been encouraging us to attack you before you get Feudalsim. [16:36] [GhengisFarb] So its [16:36] [alva] hmm [16:36] [GhengisFarb] not unbelievable that we would do this. [16:37] [GhengisFarb] This would make Vox think you are now having to split your forces. [16:37] [alva] thats not gonna easely to be sold in the GS team [16:38] [GhengisFarb] Understood, that why we brought it up several turns ahead of time. [16:39] [alva] any idea, on what would be in there for us? [16:39] [GhengisFarb] What do you want? [16:39] [alva] why not phtoshop it? [16:40] [GhengisFarb] If you guys are willing to photoshop it that would be fine, we just need your team to scream about ours landing in your land [16:40] [alva] Besides, we have this honorable thing going, so we can 't lie...ever. [16:41] [GhengisFarb] That's why we planned on landing a Horseman, everything you would say would be true. We DID invade your continent, and we did land our Horseman. [16:42] [alva] hmmm [16:42] [alva] Well, i'll post it on the forum. [16:43] [GhengisFarb] We don't want to start this until after we get Feudalism and upgrade to Pikemen though. [16:43] [alva] I don't many will be happy having units on our territory though, specially now. [16:44] [GhengisFarb] We could land them adjacent to your troops which means you would have first attack opportunity [16:44] [alva] So you don't really kno, who is going to attack you? [16:45] [GhengisFarb] OH, we are pretty darn sure, we just don't want to let the cat out of the bag yet [16:45] [alva] [16:45] [alva] if it only were a cat hey [16:46] [alva] Well, the more info you give, the more chance you got convincing the others (gs) [16:46] [alva] [16:46] [GhengisFarb] The problem is some of your team members are buddies with the team we think is going to attack us. [16:47] [alva] buddies? [16:47] [alva] so what, in this game, there are no friends [16:48] [alva] no info on this will be passed through. [16:48] [GhengisFarb] Who would be in the best postion to take advantage of this opportunity? [16:48] [alva] your closest neighbour? [16:48] [GhengisFarb] That could be either Vox or ND [16:49] [alva] Vox? [16:49] [alva] I would expect more for ND to travel south, and avoid your riders. [16:50] [GhengisFarb] What RIders? We don't have Chivalry. [16:50] [alva] (do you have the iron to do this?) [16:50] [GhengisFarb] Currently, we have Iron [16:50] [alva] You could in about 10 turns [16:51] [GhengisFarb] That would work fine [16:51] [GhengisFarb] We have to go through anarchy to get to Republic though. [16:51] [alva] true [16:52] [alva] So you think ND is going to attack you as soon as they have chivalry? [16:53] [GhengisFarb] Both of us get our UU's with Chivalry [16:54] [alva] yep, it's quite a coincedence to end up next to each other [16:54] [GhengisFarb] Our Border looks the Western Front from WWI [16:54] [alva] So, you are going to try to get them to come early...? [16:54] [alva] lol [16:55] [GhengisFarb] Once we upgrade our Spearmen to Pike

continued...

	14-04-2003 10:11									#5
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...

quote: [16:55] [alva] what are the stats for the ND UU again? [16:55] [alva] 5.3.2. [16:55] [alva] ? [16:55] [GhengisFarb] Not good, their just cheap [16:56] [GhengisFarb] Ours is more expensive but has better stats [16:56] [alva] upgrade from horsemen [16:56] [nbarclay] Ansars are 4.2.3 [16:56] [GhengisFarb] That's why we've be stockpiling Horsemen [16:56] [nbarclay] Riders 4.3.3 [16:56] [nbarclay] But Ansars cost ten gold less. [16:57] [alva] best UU in the game, the rider [16:57] [MasterZen] if you survive that long yes [16:57] [alva] [16:57] [alva] you have (almost) [16:57] [alva] [16:58] [MasterZen] that's why we must take care of that (almost) uncertainty [16:58] [alva] hmm [16:58] [GhengisFarb] The Ottoman UU is pretty potent, too bad that civ never survives that long. [16:58] [MasterZen] yep [16:58] [alva] Have you heard anything from VOX btw? [16:59] [MasterZen] haven't you seen Beta's press releases?? hahahaha [16:59] [GhengisFarb] I haven't heard anything outside the main forum in 3-4 days [16:59] [alva] very good for SP games, too late for MP [16:59] [alva] they are good [16:59] [MasterZen] the avatar wars rule though... [17:00] [alva] They didn't say anything about the galley in their waters??? [17:01] [MasterZen] Jacques Costeau is on that galley, why should they complain? [17:01] [alva] lol [17:01] [MasterZen] except he has some pretty neat binoculars... [17:01] [alva] Well, you could have trained some dolphins [17:02] [MasterZen] GoW prefers sharks [17:02] [alva] not squid? [17:03] [alva] ah, you weren't in the team yet [17:03] [alva] (to understand the squid thing) [17:03] [MasterZen] note to self: shall have to enquire on the squid joke [17:03] [alva] [17:04] [alva] Why didn't you join GS btw [17:04] [MasterZen] I made a tradeoff [17:04] [alva] you were about to be admitted [17:04] [GhengisFarb] Squid is the national food of Roleplay [17:04] [MasterZen] I said I would join GoW this game, and the strat forum team in the next PTWDG [17:05] [GhengisFarb] And Coat of Arms. [17:05] [alva] [17:05] [MasterZen] since I joined well after it started I feel i would be more useful to the smaller team [17:05] [alva] we are not that big, just many people use the icon [17:05] [GhengisFarb] We're much smaller than we appear [17:05] [MasterZen] like MegloManiac? hahaha [17:05] [alva] meglomaniac for one [17:05] [alva] lol [17:06] [alva] I'm glad other teams know, he is not on the team :relieved: [17:06] [MasterZen] that guy had no shame.. [17:06] [alva] no he hasn't [17:07] [MasterZen] look at the bright side, if you had accepted him you could've had like the entire family in [17:07] [alva] lololol [17:07] [alva] [17:07] [alva] we refused another one like him earlier.. [17:07] [alva] flash? [17:08] [alva] Later he joined vox for a couple of weeks [17:08] [MasterZen] then left? [17:08] [alva] ok, when would you like to get an answer on this? [17:09] [alva] yep, he got bored [17:09] [MasterZen] do you think your team will really consider this proposal? [17:10] [alva] Well, I can't say no, just by myself [17:10] [alva] But like I said, I doubt, they will go for it [17:10] [MasterZen] "they" as in your teammates? [17:11] [alva] Us being honorable, not lieing etc.. [17:11] [alva] yes re: team [17:12] [MasterZen] a lie is only a lie until the truth surfaces if it ever does... [17:13] [alva] The best thing IMO, is to send a PM, explaining what you want, when, and what you would be willing to give in return for it [17:13] [MasterZen] you can always bribe Trip to twist the truth... say like threatening him from staying in your forum.. hahaha [17:13] [alva] nope, it's always a lie... [17:13] [alva] Believe me, I've 'corrected' on a few occassion [17:14] [MasterZen] ok, send it to you or to Shiber? [17:14] [alva] I didn't take the 'honarable' thing as literal as most do [17:15] [MasterZen] hmmm... [17:15] [alva] Send to Shiber, he our official GOW ambas atm (but you can send it to me too, if yo want) [17:15] [MasterZen] sure, we'll draft a proposal ASAP and send it to you guys [17:15] [alva] [17:15] [alva] ok, thats's it? [17:16] [alva] need to go to the toilet [17:16] [alva] see you [17:16] [MasterZen] nothing can be more important than that [17:16] [alva] bye [17:16] [MasterZen] take care, bye [17:16] [alva] lol [17:16] [GhengisFarb] bye [17:16] [alva] bye GF [17:18] * alva has left #gow

	14-04-2003 10:36									#6
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Honestly I think that Riders can do much more damage than 6 horesman, I'm not so sure our horsemen will be able to tip the balance especially since they'll get Feudalism so shortly.

Plus, regarless of who is winning, GS will be worn out by the time we can attack in force.

IMO the best think we can do domestically is to keep 4 horsies in our land, switch to Republic and then hoard a couple of more horsemen, by the time we get Chivalry we can upgrade and get a nasty force of Riders.

But anyway, I'm not sure GS will accept it as Alva said, but I any case, I can draft up a proposal tomorrow and send it to shiber and alva



PS - 3 fake wars!!! that definitely must net us an award...

	14-04-2003 11:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen PS - 3 fake wars!!! that definitely must net us an award...

You could post that in the Awards thread in the main forum...

	14-04-2003 11:17									#8
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I am not actually concerned about GS.

Even if we left them alone, they & Vox will beat each others heads in, and they will both be severely damaged.


My concern is attempting an early war with RP.

RP want an early war...they have the units and are ready. Check the military advisor.

Plus...we have not even checked with ND yet.
They may also be quite unprepared.....just building up infastructure in readyness to pump out their UU.

The longer we delay the RP war, the better for us, as we will have superior units, and RP's will be outdated.

Regs

	14-04-2003 11:34									#9
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Master Zen....

Is there anyway you could include Lego.
Perhaps they will allow us to declare a fake war on them ? Then that means everyone get involved....

I got an email from Imtroops in a PBEM .....they are very bored over there, and he was fishing for information.

4 fake wars, involving every team would certainly be a record.

	14-04-2003 12:19									#10
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Man, 4 fake wars, thats a tough one...

Lemme think about it though

BTW, I do agree about RP though... look at the bright side, if they do attack, it'll be ND not us to feel the brunt of the attack. I'm sure ND has been thinking about it too.

I think we should have a chat with ND, there's a lot of things we must plan together.

	14-04-2003 18:04									#11
	Put an end to popups!

The plan as originally proposed is:

We fight fake war with Vox, land in back of GS (in progress)
Land in GS and commence fake war with them. (erveryone already expects this)
ND starts fake war with us by invading us once we are "committed" in GS territory.
RP sees its opportunity to attack ND and attacks.

We swoop in with our galleys and attack RP from the southern coast and swoop in from the east with Riders. ND is fully defended in southern cities and RP DOESN'T take them by suprise.

ND takes the brunt of the Roleplay forces assault.

	15-04-2003 00:48									#12
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I feel uneasy about this plan... but maybe thats why I want to become the Consul of Internal Affairs instead of the CoFA... less pressure

	15-04-2003 03:43									#13
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I have already stated my concerns...
My preference is to remain with the original plan.

1. Simple plans are easier to execute and there is less chance of things going wrong.
2. We are going to upset GS (big deal, they are going to be destroyed), but I would rather not make Vox our enemy by not following through with our agreement. If anything, I would like to bring those misfits with us to the final two.
3. GS is not guaranteed destruction...we must not underestimate them. If they "negotiate" their way out of this war (what do you think they have been doing holding the saves for so long) then we need to protect our borders from invaders. At this stage, we are reasonably safe with ND vs RP and Vox vs GS.
4. I think the later we delay the RP war, the better for us. We dont have many units yet, while RP have spent a lot of shields building a soon to be obsolete force.

Regs

	15-04-2003 09:37									#14
	Put an end to popups!

we had a chat with the ND guys earlier today and they seem to like the idea. Problem is GS, they are too snobby with their "honor code" (pathetic) and seem reluctant and they would want something in return.

But even if the deal doesn't go through at least they are now harboring suspicion about a war on vox against us, and that is good.

	15-04-2003 19:20									#15
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Who says our attack on GS has to be fake? If they don't want to go along with it we can land our Horsemen and start pillaging roads.

	15-04-2003 23:35									#16
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+1 vote for real GS attack

	16-04-2003 00:40									#17
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make it +2

	16-04-2003 02:46									#18
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+3