14-04-2003 09:07									#1
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OK, i'm trying diety level, and i got to say its much harder than chieftain! But seroiusly how many units shuold i have in defense in in city.

	14-04-2003 11:08									#2
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That depends what sort of game you are playing. In a lot of the early landing games cities have no defenders and diplomacy (tech gifting) is used to keep the AI civs sweet.

On the other hand three vet units behind city walls will usually work. Try one good defensive unit, one good attacking unit to take care of the slow but powerful enemy and a mobile unit for patrols. Having a diplomat handy for bribing is good too.

RJM at Sleepers

	14-04-2003 13:27									#3
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For my money - the secret of Deity level is expansion - get those cities down - I feel that a city needs only a single Warrior to ensure martial law and then spews out the Settlers - of course I make the HG my priority WoW - and generally start it in my capital asap - this fixes the happiness problems for the first 5 millenia

Obviously the following depends upon map - closeness of AI and a thousand other factors, but my 'ideal' build list is something like:

Cap: Warrior, Warrior, Temple, start HG
2nd city: Warrior, Settler, Warrior (to run to cap), Settler
Other cities: Warrior, Settlers

This continues until Trade changes all the rules, on a good day you will get a couple of NON four legged explorers before founding, if this doesn't happen build a couple yourself.

Tech path - beeline to Monarchy taking Pottery as the junk tech - then go for Trade

But this is merely my preference - there are a zillion ways of skinning this cat - such is the glory of this game.

SG[1]

	14-04-2003 17:16									#4
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I like building a settler out of my cap. The extra city early really makes a difference. In MP double production games, I'll spit out 2 settlers from my cap. (always playing deity)

	14-04-2003 17:44									#5
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Most cities don't need anything other than the warrior military police, especially core cities. Keep some mobile countering units and diplos at strategic locations and you'll be fine.

And it's DEITY!

	14-04-2003 20:24									#6
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But you never know when that barb ship will appear in that one square ocean in the middle of your territory and unload knights or crusaders that can move and attack on the same turn. So it's always nice to have one good defensive unit.

	14-04-2003 22:01									#7
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Hehe that blows. Sure have some defensive units, but noone puts phalanxes in every (or even every city hypothetically vulnerable to the phenomenon you mention) city early game in either SP or MP.

The thread starter wants opinions, and in my opinion beginners are more likely to overdefend than underdefend, so I emphasised not overdefending.

	14-04-2003 22:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Hehe that blows. Sure have some defensive units, but noone puts phalanxes in every (or even every city hypothetically vulnerable to the phenomenon you mention) city early game in either SP or MP.

I do. I put at least one phalanx in every city that might be subject to attack. (and I'm not a newb) Maybe you should play more than you post.

RAH

	14-04-2003 22:49									#9
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My opinion is a valid one, and I was responding to the thread starter (predominantly for SP) with my opinion. Sorry if that bothers you.

	14-04-2003 22:51									#10
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Oops. Misclick.

	14-04-2003 23:06									#11
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Even in SP i Play raging hoards so I do the same thing. So I don't see the difference. My statement stands. You should play more than post. Your opinions might have more weight than a simple +1 or +2 when you misclick.

Sorry if that bothers you

RAH

	14-04-2003 23:21									#12
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I don't know why you are being such an ass about this Rah.

Having said that I hope you did not misinterpret my "hehe that blows" above as meaning your post (or the opinions therein) blows, because it meant it blows when barbs appear on an inland sea with 2 move attackers.......since core cities are often not so well defended.

Now as to the point, I will often defend cities that are potentially vulnerable to attack generally with a phalanx, but my statement was clearly about defending cities from the phenomenon to which you alluded. If I felt the only threat to a city was to a 2-move barb from an inland sea I doubt I'd build a phalanx and slow down my expansion. That's just my opinion, you are free to do otherwise.

However I ask that you keep any posts you make disagreeing with me about the issues we are discussing and not about attacking my posting or amount of play time generally.

For what it's worth over the last 10 days I played around 40 hours on some ELG games.

	14-04-2003 23:39									#13
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While I mostly agree that newbs have a tendency to over defend some real experienced players have a tendency to underdefend and take the risk associated with it, Knowing that if the risk goes bad, they can quit or restart, then claim they just had bad luck instead of admitting that their calculated risk bit them in the butt like it will sometimes. But if it works, it was skill.

By first comment was simple light hearted teasing since you inferred that some phalanx builders are newbs (ME). You fired back so I did too. I'll Chill, and no hard feelings.

RAH

	15-04-2003 00:36									#14
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Cool.

I never said phalanx builders were noobs, just that defence can easily be overdone. And it is something that new players tend to do......I know I did back in '96 when the game came out. Obviously you are not a new player, but IIRC (and I may not ) in a thread discussing this point about a year back you yourself said you thought you probably overdid defence.

I agree with your comment about calculated risk........and I have been caught in MP with my pants down before........but I have never claimed I was unlucky when I was caught.

And in SP where the AI can usually be persuaded to lay off it is even easier to overdefend IMO......which is why I suggested earlier to Rick to use warriors + counters + diplos as much as is possible.

	15-04-2003 01:15									#15
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Yep, war4 is another that risks the warrior defense, but at least when it comes back to bite him, he'll admit it, but there are many others that say to do otherwise is stupid, until it doesn't work, then it was luck. And yes I do sometimes overdo the defense, but it's reasonably contolled and I don't fall too far behind expanding and catch up quite quickly since I'm not losing any cities. I'll build that extra phalanx to escort the settler out (after the first few). I rarely lose a settler that way, so it's worth the investment.

And the AI is a lot more aggressive in the MP version. But the main defense is for the early barb attacks that can cripple you. Losing a city before 3000 bc isn't critical in sp (since NOTHING is really critical in SP) but in mp it can be devestating. and requires a little luck to recover from.

	15-04-2003 01:25									#16
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If I can support 100 units then I'll build 101

I've just never had the nerve to defend with warriors(bluff basically) or the 10 cities-10 phalanx Republic thing.I want cutting edge units and lots of them.Vets of course.At least 3 per city most likely with some higher sheild barracks cities supporting half dozen or more.In mp games I often end up with 25-30 cities supporting 100-130 units.No wonders,no infastructure and a crappy civ.But a well defended crappy civ

	15-04-2003 01:59									#17
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I don't go quite that overboard. And If I'm going to support 100-130 units, that resource is going to go out and pay for itself by taking other's cities.

In a lot of games I average 4 units per city and am still able to build wonders, and a good infrastructure with many trade routes. (I too am usually well defended)

	15-04-2003 02:41									#18
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In SP - a Phalanx and a Horseman are better than 2 Phalanxes, in the early game. Even a Warrior and a Horseman will do, usually. The main threat in the early game is barbarians. The AI civs might be far away, and they usually attack in dribs and drabs. A Horseman unit lets you kill the barb Archers (especially), and/or lets you chase after the King.

I usually start by building Warriors only, back them up with Horsemen, and better attack units when they become available. I start building Phalanxes in new cities when I already have several cities down - and especially on rivers.

I've thought about dispensing with the Phalanx altogether and just building Horsemen as my 20-shield defender, but I just can't make myself do it... Plus, the LW upgrade is nice to have.

In the later game, the idea is to have much better technology than the AI does. I seldom need more than one defender in any of my cities, because it's usually a Musketeer facing Elephants, or some similar mismatch. And it's a rare occasion when an AI civ gets close to my core cities after the early game, anyway.

	15-04-2003 03:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man In SP - a Phalanx and a Horseman are better than 2 Phalanxes, in the early game. Even a Warrior and a Horseman will do, usually. The main threat in the early game is barbarians. The AI civs might be far away, and they usually attack in dribs and drabs. A Horseman unit lets you kill the barb Archers (especially), and/or lets you chase after the King.

Agreed phalanx and horse are better than two phalanxs, but you only get one off the path tech prior to monarchy. You have to choose one or the other. (at first anyway, it can be rectified quite easily after monarchy) But if i get horse riding early from a hut, that's what you have to use, since you don't want to take a second tech off the path.

While horses can be quite effective fighting off the early barb attacks, if the barb archer can approach the city on hills or mountains or good river squares. That horse may not be able to kill it. But it is easier to chase the kings. If you've got that tough terrain against your city, you can always move the phalanx out of the city to defend. There are advantages and dissadvantages to either. With the tiny worlds we play MP games on, the terrain is usually harsher than most of the normal sp games.

	15-04-2003 07:43									#20
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I like to build a settler in my capitol first thing - I start my worker on a forrest to get the 2 shields. That way the settler is built before the capitol gets to size 2. Civ2 wont disband your capitol it just gives you a settler as long as you have no other cities. Your other settler has to be content with exploring/ building roads for 14 turns and found the 2nd city after the settlers are built.

I find that very early in the game 1 warrior is usualy enough. I want 3 units of some sort in my capitol and second city before
HG and colosus are built.

Capitol:
Settlers, warriors, Wonder (if I have a tech - settlers otherwise)

2nd City:
warrior,settlers,settlers, warior, wonder

3rd City:
warior, settlers,warior,settlers,warior,warior

This is all subject to change if I get some good units out of the huts. I'll defend with good units and send the wariors out to explore.

	15-04-2003 17:51									#21
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Lately, I've had increased early success by using movement x2 units for early defense. Why? Because an early Barb king is HUGE -- it takes many turns to earn 150gp at that point in the game. Thus, Horseback Riding is now my preferred junk tech (unless I get a couple units from huts).

Post-Monarchy, I tend to take Writing (dips) and use a small mobile bribe force as barb defense.

My typical build pattern --

1st city -- warrior, settler, warrior, temple
2nd city -- warrior, settler, settler, warrior/horseman
3rd city -- warrior/horseman, settler, horseman

But it can change a lot depending on terrain, specials, and hut results (not to mention that Barb king!!). The goal is usually to get to Monarchy ASAP, then get Trade. But I've been experimenting with early Republic lately...

And yes, I'm a relative noob, playing only since 01/02.

	15-04-2003 19:00									#22
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Hehe I've gone the other way since I have been playing early landing games..........polishing the early republic with the lean defence, 1 cunningly positioned diplo.

Still, even then others are attaining good results with Monarchy and some early exploration/kings.

A testament to the game.

	15-04-2003 19:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by rah Agreed phalanx and horse are better than two phalanxs, but you only get one off the path tech prior to monarchy. You have to choose one or the other. (at first anyway, it can be rectified quite easily after monarchy) But if i get horse riding early from a hut, that's what you have to use, since you don't want to take a second tech off the path.

Aha... prior to Monarchy, I almost never build Phalanxes. Warriors and then Horsemen. SP, naturally. You're right, for my 'off' tech I try to get Horseback Riding. It's a tough call though - Bronze also lets you start a Wonder. Were it not for that, Horseback would always be my first 'off' tech. I suppose I'm not all that consistent with my tech choices I am consistent, now, in just building Warriors early on. Yes, sometimes I get burned. But other times, I have some NONs to fall back on and use those to garrison my 'edge' cities.

quote: While horses can be quite effective fighting off the early barb attacks, if the barb archer can approach the city on hills or mountains or good river squares. That horse may not be able to kill it. But it is easier to chase the kings. If you've got that tough terrain against your city, you can always move the phalanx out of the city to defend. There are advantages and dissadvantages to either. With the tiny worlds we play MP games on, the terrain is usually harsher than most of the normal sp games.

Yes... on crummy terrain maps, I suppose the Phalanx makes more sense. I usually play on big, old (5billion) maps, and try not to build cities adjacent to good defensive terrain, like hills or mountains. Unless a really good sweet spot is involved.

	15-04-2003 19:32									#24
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The other advantage of Bronze is that it's required for trade. But getting 4 legged units out hut snarfing also has it's advantages.

	15-04-2003 19:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by rah The other advantage of Bronze is that it's required for trade. But getting 4 legged units out hut snarfing also has it's advantages.

Right, of course, that too Damn it, you're making me doubt my strategy, crafted through long hours of effort and muddled early games

Getting trade early means getting MPE early, and then you can swap for Pot or Horseback or whatever...

	15-04-2003 19:51									#26
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barbs have a tendency to bite me in the ass when I only defend with warriors, so I try to defend with a phalanx and an offensive unit

	15-04-2003 19:51									#27
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Yes, I'm usually torn between bronze or horse. But the decision is usually made for me. I get horse or another tech off the path from a hut, or I get a 4 legged unit or two from a hut. If i get one or two from huts, I'll do bronze every time.

The other advantage of bronze is that you have to have something for the early barb archer to impale themselves against so you can go after the king. The earlier in the game you get the 150 the more the advantage is. Of course my favorite is with the barb horses where the king doesn't keep up, and with one diplo bribe one horse for 41 and kill the king for the 150. and then sometimes the other horse.

RAH
And yes, horse work much better on the maps you're probably playing. On some of ours, having the 2 movement unit isn't always helpful when most of the terrain require 2+ movement points.

	15-04-2003 20:17									#28
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In MP bronze is my choice 90% of the time........because its on the path to trade, and you can get horsies from huts.

	15-04-2003 20:34									#29
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I also prefer Bronze, but sometimes you have to play the hand you're dealt. Getting that tribe from the hut away from your capital on a grassland, surrounded on three sides by unexplored black defended by a lowly warrior and 3250 bc has just arrived.

RAH

	15-04-2003 20:47									#30
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quote: Originally posted by rah I also prefer Bronze, but sometimes you have to play the hand you're dealt. Getting that tribe from the hut away from your capital on a grassland, surrounded on three sides by unexplored black defended by a lowly warrior and 3250 bc has just arrived. RAH

Gaah, I hate when that happens. Makes for 2 or 3 nerve-wracking turns.

I once played a game on the Giga-earth map - I started in Australia. (This was ToT, raging hordes). I got barbs at 3250 and every 3d year thereafter for a very, very long time. I had over 1000 in the treasury from barb kings, at one point - and I was spending money rushing chariots all the while.

That was too much of a good thing. IIRC, I didn't build a single Phalanx except in my wooded-river capital.

And I'm sure there's an Australia-barbarian joke in there somewhere