15-04-2003 01:37									#31
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As for malpractice premiums being so high, how about you cap the profit margins of insurance companies as well. Premiums are also high because these companies are losing money on investments. There was a wonderful article in Newsweek two months ago when this was a hot topic.

I would also agree with the reforms you talked about Ming, but the problem of high insurance premiums is two-pronged.

As for the smoking ban, I think it is wrong. Individual restaurants should decide for themselves whether or not they want smoking. If the market dictates that customers don't like smoking, then the businesses won't get customers. It's as simple as that.

	15-04-2003 01:39									#32
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It's not just customers you need to consider though Sava, it's the employees as well.

	15-04-2003 01:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Just because they are chicken****

So that's why my community nearly lost 14 doctors were nearly forced to leave the area to find insurance! I had no idea it was because they were chickenshit.

	15-04-2003 01:43									#34
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If they took responsibility for the actions of the most incompetant among them they wouldn't be in their mess. Like said before, the silent line of MDs is despicable, especially because you are dealing with lives.

It is this whining that makes me think sometimes that we'd be better off with a national health care program (you got me Sava ).

	15-04-2003 01:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's It's not just customers you need to consider though Sava, it's the employees as well.

Unless there is a restaurant that suddenly becomes a smoking restaurant, I don't see a problem. If I get a job at a Toxic Waste plant, I wouldn't be surprised if my nuts fell off.

	15-04-2003 01:43									#36
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I don't think anybody is arguing about the right to sue.

But as DD points out, it's a sad state of affairs when doctors can't treat patients because insurance to practice is no longer affordable.

But at least you are lucky Imran... the profession making the most money out of this are the lawyers.

	15-04-2003 01:44									#37
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quote: It is this whining that makes me think sometimes that we'd be better off with a national health care program (you got me Sava ).

w000t!

	15-04-2003 01:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's It's not just customers you need to consider though Sava, it's the employees as well.

How do the Brits say it... bollocks?

Employees have the ability to seek employment elsewhere should they find the working conditions not to their liking.

Smoking is a legal activity. Telling private business owners that they can't allow certain legal activities within their walls is simply unfair. Why should the government be allowed to dictate such a thing to someone on their own property?

	15-04-2003 01:51									#39
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quote: Smoking is a legal activity. Telling private business owners that they can't allow certain legal activities within their walls is simply unfair. Why should the government be allowed to dictate such a thing to someone on their own property?

Just in case some retard says the smoking ban is a liberal conspiracy... for the record, both Boris and I disagree with it.

	15-04-2003 01:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Employees have the ability to seek employment elsewhere should they find the working conditions not to their liking.

Never thought I'd hear a lefty say that...

	15-04-2003 01:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Never thought I'd hear a lefty say that...

Don't think we're all the same Boddykins

	15-04-2003 01:59									#42
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Who said I disagree with it?

On a theoretical level, yes, I think it's wrong.

However, I'm a non-smoker and pretty much find it revolting. On a selfish level, I love the ban. I can now go out to the bars and come home without reeking of smoke. I can also stay out longer, as I no longer have to worry about the smoke bothering my contact lenses. Breathing in smoke skeeves me out, because it just highlights the fact that I'm sucking in all the crap breathed out by other people.

So, on that level, I admit to putting my selfish desires above my ethical ones, and am quite happy with the ban.

Plus, I love seeing smokers huddled into a little group, fighting off the chill as they desperately suck on their cancer sticks, not wanting to miss out on the fun their friends are having inside.

	15-04-2003 02:02									#43
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I do have to ask what kind of fool goes out to a bar and doesn't expect to see people smoking. It's a bar not a place forhealth food for God's sake.

	15-04-2003 02:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Smoking is a legal activity. Telling private business owners that they can't allow certain legal activities within their walls is simply unfair. Why should the government be allowed to dictate such a thing to someone on their own property?

Smoking in public places is a health risk to everyone around them, and is therefore a public issue and can be banned accordingly in public places.

Then again, some would argue that government laws for human safety and health shouldn't apply to private facilities, but I'd disagree.

I like seeing restaurants abide by health regulations, and I like seeing restaurants abiding by a smoking ban for the safety of patrons.

	15-04-2003 02:04									#45
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Bars aren't public places -- they're private establishments.

Edit: X-Edit. The public should not be given the ability to dictate what goes on within the confines of a private establishment, so long as what is being done is otherwise legal (e.g. smoking cigarettes) and so long as what is being done does not pose a risk to those outside of the private establishment (e.g. lighting fires indiscriminately within a bar). Nobody is being forced to inhale cigarette smoke, since nobody is being forced to work at or patronize a bar.

Last edited by loinburger on 15-04-2003 at 02:12

	15-04-2003 02:07									#46
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"Public house"

	15-04-2003 02:18									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yeah, well, **** you too, you ****ing ****!

Ummmm, why are you so offended? You consider yourself part of the stupid citizens? I pitty you.

Oh and second, Toronto is not a reference.......it's Canada's shamed city IMO.


Spec.

	15-04-2003 02:21									#48
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I agree with Asher, public places should be smoke-free. But private establishments should have the right to dictate their own status.

	15-04-2003 02:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Smoking is a legal activity. Telling private business owners that they can't allow certain legal activities within their walls is simply unfair. Why should the government be allowed to dictate such a thing to someone on their own property?

Because people can't be experts on every product they consume we have government regulations to provide safety. A relevant example may be restaurants (and other public places) being required to meet health and safety requirements, you can't have hazardous chemicals on the floor or floating in the air. In its wisdom, NYC has decided cigarette smoke is a hazardous substance.

	15-04-2003 02:34									#50
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People are such morons. It's sad that this poor guy's death is made the secondary issue (his idiot relatives' blaming the city being the first).

I can't wait to get back to NY (I'm flying back Friday)!! It'll be so nice to be able to go to favorite billard's place and relax and be able to play chess without all the smoke! I bet I'll win my money back from the various guys I've lost to in the past (instead of my allergies being my disadvantage, their addictions will become their disadvanatage; also I've been studying a bit).

Perhaps they can sue the city to pay for their losses.

- Narz

	15-04-2003 02:34									#51
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If you don't like smoke, don't go to the restaurant. Fatty food is just as deadly as cigarrette smoke. Heart disease, IIRC, is the biggest cause of death in America. So what's next? Should we make fast food illegal?

	15-04-2003 02:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Should we make fast food illegal?

Nahhh... the fat people will just sue the fast food restaurants for selling them the food they ask for...

	15-04-2003 02:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Smoking in public places is a health risk to everyone around them, and is therefore a public issue and can be banned accordingly in public places. Then again, some would argue that government laws for human safety and health shouldn't apply to private facilities, but I'd disagree. I like seeing restaurants abide by health regulations, and I like seeing restaurants abiding by a smoking ban for the safety of patrons.

There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that second-hand smoke is a health risk. Citations of such a risk invariably go back to the EPA's study in the early 1990s, which is horribly flawed and contradicted by numerous other independent studies. In 1998 a U.S. judge vacated most of the report, saying that they had arrived at a conclusion and then made up a study to support it. So the study carries no official weight at all, yet laws come out still based on it... brilliant!

	15-04-2003 02:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree with Asher, public places should be smoke-free. But private establishments should have the right to dictate their own status.

It's a health issue, not just for patrons but for workers. Someone metioned a toxic waste plant; well at a toxic waste plant they at least try to contain the waste as best as possible and prevent employes from inhaling or otherwise ingesting the toxic substances. Likewise a bar should be required to do everything possible to prevent its employees from ingesting harmful substances.

The "if you take the job, don't complain" argument is not valid. The reality is employees and employers do not have equal bargaining strength. Government regulation can be seen as a form of collective bargaining where the people say "we will not work under these conditions." This is a great example of where without collective bargaining the employees would suffer horribly.

	15-04-2003 02:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If you don't like smoke, don't go to the restaurant. Fatty food is just as deadly as cigarrette smoke. Heart disease, IIRC, is the biggest cause of death in America. So what's next? Should we make fast food illegal?

Restaurants are for food. If you said "If you don't like smoke, don't go to the cigar club" perhaps you'd have a point. People who eat too much only hurt themselves but smokers influence all those around them with their smoke.

	15-04-2003 02:44									#56
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I'm not so concerned about the restaurant part. In fact, I've been to a ton of restaurants with smoking and non-smoking sections. I don't see a need to ban all the smoking. But the bar thing bugs me. What the hell kind of free country is this if I can't go into a bar, have a beer and smoke a cigarette. (I don't smoke BTW, but I'm just saying)

	15-04-2003 02:45									#57
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Boris :
Are you a smoker ?

Curiously, the non-smoker I am is all for anti-tobacco regulations, even if I think such a regulation is unrealistic in bars.
Despite the facts there are some real hazards coming from second hand smoke (i.e the allergies and the oversensitivity), the health hazards aren't the real issue.

When you're a non smoker, smoke is a huge pain in the ass. It stinks. It stings the eyes. It makes you cough in big quantities. It hinders you to enjoy anything that could smell good or taste good (such as a meal at a restaurant, or a drink at a bar).

You know what ? If I piss on you, it is not dangerous for your health. Yet, I don't see it being allowed to piss on people. Go figure.

	15-04-2003 02:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There is no conclusive evidence whatsoever that second-hand smoke is a health risk. Citations of such a risk invariably go back to the EPA's study in the early 1990s, which is horribly flawed and contradicted by numerous other independent studies. In 1998 a U.S. judge vacated most of the report, saying that they had arrived at a conclusion and then made up a study to support it. So the study carries no official weight at all, yet laws come out still based on it... brilliant!

I seriously doubt there is no conclusive evidence that 2nd hand smoke is a health risk. I figure it's just so obvious that no one has bothered to prove it. If your friend was allergic to cats would you toss eight longhaired cats in his lap and then argue that all the evidence states that pets are good for your health?

Every law does not need scientific backing. Some things are just common sense, blowing smoke in someone's face is akin to pissing in their beer mug, they have to absorb it despite what the EPA study says.

	15-04-2003 02:50									#59
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I hated people smoking near me and blowing smokes on me EVEN WHEN I USED TO SMOKE.

Hey, I dont mind smelling my own gas... but when somebody else did it I would be pissed.

	15-04-2003 02:51									#60
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@ Spiffor, I see you beat me to it (the analogy)