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DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:27
Arrow  Old Post 14-04-2003 22:50
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Bouncer Dies, and Family Blames City's Smoking Ban Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/14/nyregion/14STAB.html

quote:
A bouncer at a bar on Manhattan's Lower East Side was fatally stabbed early yesterday during a fight that broke out after he asked two patrons to put out their cigarettes, the police said.

The bouncer's brother blamed a ban on smoking in restaurants and bars that went into effect two weeks ago for the death, calling his brother, Dana Blake, "the first casualty" of New York City's new law.

About 2:30 a.m. yesterday, Mr. Blake, 32, known in the neighborhood for a gentle manner that contrasted with his imposing frame, told two brothers, Jonathan and Ching Chan, that they could not smoke in the bar, the police said they were told by witnesses.

It is not clear how the brothers responded, but whatever was said caused Mr. Blake to try to eject Jonathan Chan, 29, from the bar, Guernica, at 25 Avenue B, taking hold of his neck, the police said.

Ching Chan, 31, tried to intervene, the police said, grabbing Mr. Blake's neck, and then another man and woman who were apparently friends of the brothers joined in, with the woman leaping onto the bouncer's back to break up the fight.

Amid the scuffle, one of the brothers stabbed Mr. Blake in the torso, and both ran out of the bar, the police said. People who work on that block of Avenue B said that another bouncer from the bar chased them down.

The police arrested the two brothers on charges of assault, criminal possession of a weapon and resisting arrest.

The police said last night that they had not determined which brother had stabbed Mr. Blake.

A woman who answered the door last night at Jonathan Chan's address on the Lower East Side declined to comment. No one answered the door at Ching Chan's address in Chinatown.

Mr. Blake, 32, was taken to Beth Israel Medical Center, where he died almost 12 hours later with his family watching over him. The knife had severed one of his arteries, said Tony Blake, Mr. Blake's older brother.

"Why does somebody have to suffer because somebody wants to pass a cigarette law?" Tony Blake asked. He said that he did not smoke or drink himself, but added, "If you go to Sodom and Gomorrah, you're going to find people smoking there. This is what bars are."

But the police played down the connection between the death and the antismoking law, which was championed by Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. "The smoking issue was the initial contact," said Deputy Commissioner Michael O'Looney, the Police Department's chief spokesman. "The homicide seems to be more over the issue of the ejection from the bar."

Edward Skyler, a spokesman for Mr. Bloomberg, declined to comment on Tony's Blake's assertion that the smoking regulations were central to the crime. "The mayor is satisfied that the police quickly apprehended the two men responsible for this senseless death, and his thoughts are with the family of the victim," Mr. Skyler said.

Tony Blake said that in his brother's years as a bouncer, he had been attacked and even stabbed before, but that he loved the job. He had been working at Guernica for about 18 months, and had a side business custom-painting portraits on the backs of denim jackets, Tony Blake said.

Standing 6-foot-5 with a shaved head, Dana Blake, known to his co-workers and friends as Shazam, was a striking presence on the block of Avenue B between Third and Fourth Streets. He went out of his way to play with small children, assembling a bicycle for his 2-year-old niece, Nyah, or entertaining Noah Leeds, the toddler son of Jonathan and Suzie Leeds, who sell ices on Avenue B, friends and family members said.

"He had a tremendous heart," Mr. Leeds said. "He was so big and imposing, but when you knew him you couldn't help gravitating to him."

Unaware that Mr. Blake had died at the hospital, the Leeds family had been discussing how to raise money to help pay his medical bills, they said.

Adam Silk, a chiropractor on the block, called Mr. Blake a "pacifist" and said he was diplomatic when it came to handling belligerent patrons.

Most of the workers at Guernica, an upscale lounge with a sleek curved bar and a menu of tapas, declined to speak with a reporter yesterday, but put a vase of red chrysanthemums on the sidewalk. In the window, they put up several photographs of Mr. Blake, alone and with friends, in each one wearing black and smiling with delight.


So light up and save a life.

Skywise is offline Skywise
Prince
Samara's best friend
Jan 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 22:59
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I blame it on the stupid citizens that New York is filled with. Only in the U.S. will you find metal detectors in schools.....dont wonder why this kind of **** happens...

Spec.

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
Emperor
But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:00
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I would blame the guy that stabbed him.

Ming is offline Ming
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Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:02 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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More proof that the US needs Tort Reforms NOW!

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
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Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
More proof that the US needs Tort Reforms NOW!


OK, I'm hooked! What are you refering to?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:19
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This is great logic - of course the best way to reduce crime is to make everything legal. I wouldn't recommend it though.

Ming is offline Ming
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:34 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by SpencerH
OK, I'm hooked! What are you refering to?


Continual discussions on the subject of reforming the laws in regards to civil legal actions... The fact that a suit like this can be even considered by a court is a joke.

America has turned into a "no matter what happens, you can find somebody to sue" kind of place.

Medical care is going down hill as most doctors are not willing to perform basic functions because they can't affort the insurance needed to cover their practices.

While we do need protection, and malpractice suits are important... there needs to be some balance in the system. When you have doctors now who won't deliver babies anymore, it's a sad state of affairs.

And when people can proceed with lawsuits like the one in the opening post.... ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

There are too many stupid lawsuits these days... A system has to be put in place to limit these, and place reasonable limits on dollars awarded.

Carver is offline Carver
Prince
reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Jan 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
More proof that the US needs Tort Reforms NOW!


We need corporate reform so that damages (not just physical damages) won't happen as often in the first place. If a company damages someone they have to pay the price, that's the only way to keep them clean.

Re: the story, NYC's smoking ban is awesome, if a little late. I hate going to a club or bar and then getting home and having my clothes smell like smoke. And, more importantly, the people who work in those places need to be protected from the health hazards.

The people that jumped the bouncer need to be charged with murder, I hope the charges are upgraded.

As for the family blaming the smoking ban, they just lost a loved one so I wouldn't blame them for anything they say.

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:41 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Carver
As for the family blaming the smoking ban, they just lost a loved one so I wouldn't blame them for anything they say.




I blame them... because I'm sure they didn't start saying things like this until AFTER they had talked to some dirt bag lawyer who promised them a big pay day.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:44
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I may be a liberal euroweenie, but I also blame those who stabbed him. There is a disturbing trend in western judiciaries to shift the responsibility to someone indirectly responsible, or not responsible at all, whether in malicious acts or in accidents.
The US started this trend, I sure hope, they'll soon find a solution too.

Skywise is offline Skywise
Prince
Samara's best friend
Jan 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming


Continual discussions on the subject of reforming the laws in regards to civil legal actions... The fact that a suit like this can be even considered by a court is a joke.

America has turned into a "no matter what happens, you can find somebody to sue" kind of place.

Medical care is going down hill as most doctors are not willing to perform basic functions because they can't affort the insurance needed to cover their practices.

While we do need protection, and malpractice suits are important... there needs to be some balance in the system. When you have doctors now who won't deliver babies anymore, it's a sad state of affairs.

And when people can proceed with lawsuits like the one in the opening post.... ARGHHHHHHHHHHHH.

There are too many stupid lawsuits these days... A system has to be put in place to limit these, and place reasonable limits on dollars awarded.


Skywise is offline Skywise
Prince
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Jan 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I may be a liberal euroweenie, but I also blame those who stabbed him. There is a disturbing trend in western judiciaries to shift the responsibility to someone indirectly responsible, or not responsible at all, whether in malicious acts or in accidents.
The US started this trend, I sure hope, they'll soon find a solution too.


Aucun rapport avec le quote mais Spiffor, est ce qu'il y a des gens qui t'appelle PisseFort?

Last edited by Skywise on 15-04-2003 at 00:03

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 14-04-2003 23:51
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Silly. If they'd been swearing loudly, would the death of the bouncer have been blamed on the bar's noise policy?

Flubber is offline Flubber
Emperor
With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
Silly. If they'd been swearing loudly, would the death of the bouncer have been blamed on the bar's noise policy?


or shirtless . . . would there be a lawsuit over a dress code etc etc.

Its funny that anyone can blame the smoking bylaw for this with anything approaching a straight face

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 00:40
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quote:
Continual discussions on the subject of reforming the laws in regards to civil legal actions... The fact that a suit like this can be even considered by a court is a joke.


I may have missed this, but where was there ANY mention of a lawsuit?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 00:40
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Spec

My nickname with my RL friends is plain Spiff. And I almost only go to Englishspeaking forums with my Spiffor nick, where nobody would think of this pun.
So no

Ming is offline Ming
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Jan 1970
time: 23:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 00:49 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
[ I may have missed this, but where was there ANY mention of a lawsuit?


Read between the lines Imran... Listen to how the authorities are responding...

Read how they are "trying to raise money"...

Would you like to make a bet about whether a law suit or a "payment" (to avoid a law suit) is made.

I would consider it a very safe bet. Safer than betting on another New York Yankees World Series ...

SpencerH is offline SpencerH
King
Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

I may have missed this, but where was there ANY mention of a lawsuit?


I didnt see it either hence by question. Ming musta picked it up elsewhere.

As for the poor besieged physicians who's malpractice insurance is sky-high. Tough ****! I recognize there's a problem with the current system but we have to have some way to make physicians accountable for there actions. The MD creeps who whine the loudest over this issue are also the ones who refuse to allow anyone other than MD's from judging their transgressions. People talk about the police 'wall of silence' but thats nothing compared to the MD's. Until that bunch of bullshit ends I say sue their fat money-grubbing asses off when they ****-up.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:00
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quote:
Read between the lines Imran... Listen to how the authorities are responding...


So you are predicting there will be one, and therefore you are going to make the argument no matter how true or false it is .

I know you have to pimp your views on us all, but any tort reform isn't going to prevent people from filing suit, but simply limit the size of victories.

quote:
As for the poor besieged physicians who's malpractice insurance is sky-high. Tough ****! I recognize there's a problem with the current system but we have to have some way to make physicians accountable for there actions. The MD creeps who whine the loudest over this issue are also the ones who refuse to allow anyone other than MD's from judging their transgressions. People talk about the police 'wall of silence' but thats nothing compared to the MD's. Until that bunch of bullshit ends I say sue their fat money-grubbing asses off when they ****-up.




Plenty of cases where scalpels have been left inside patients. It's incredible how negligent MDs really are.

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
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USA
Jan 1970
time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:01
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Heck, most restaurants ban sandals or bare feet as well!

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectator
I blame it on the stupid citizens that New York is filled with. Only in the U.S. will you find metal detectors in schools.....dont wonder why this kind of **** happens...

Spec.


Yeah, well, **** you too, you ****ing ****!

Actually, NYC has a far lower violent crime rate than many other American cities. And you'll only find metal detectors in the most problematic schools in rough areas, just as you will in some other large American cities.

I'm sure I could find wonderful tales of violent deaths from other places to show how stupid the citizens of other places are. Shall I start with Toronto?

------

If a suit emerges, the family would sue the city because it has deeper pockets than the family Chen. That the smoking ban is there as a convenient excuse for the suit doesn't really matter, as they'd probably sue on another reason.

Tort Reform wouldn't prevent them from being able to file the stupid lawsuit, anyway.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:04
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The smoking ban is stupid but I'd still throw the suit out and fine the family for wasting my time if I were the judge.

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:09 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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But Imran... what do you tell patients in many places in the country when they want to have a baby, and the nearest doctor that will deliver it is over 6 hours away because none of the local doctors can now afford the insurance needed to perform such operations.

I have no problem with malpractice suits. I just have a problem with the fact that now, if ANYTHING goes wrong, even an act of GOD, the people sue. It's cheaper for the insurance companies to just settle then actually fight it... and insurance rates go up, and more and more doctors can't afford the insurance.

Again... yeah, people who leave instruments in patients should be sued... but the whole situation is now getting out of hand.

Tort Reform is needed in this country... To many people are suing for no good reason except for looking for a big pay day... Real lawyers, the good ones with ethics, don't touch these kind of cases. But like in all professions, you will find the sleeze balls that will not only take them, but encourage them.

Wanting to be a lawyer yourself, I would like to think that you will be one of good ones... a lawyer with real ethics

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
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time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:12
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quote:
But Imran... what do you tell patients in many places in the country when they want to have a baby, and the nearest doctor that will deliver it is over 6 hours away because none of the local doctors can now afford the insurance needed to perform such operations.


Blame the doctor. Just because they are chicken**** doesn't mean that people who get screwed shouldn't sue.

quote:
Wanting to be a lawyer yourself, I would like to think that you will be one of good ones... a lawyer with real ethics


Because the medical profession has a lot of ethical people?

Felch is offline Felch
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Sep 2001
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  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:12
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They shouldn't sue the government, but they should be able to derive just compensation from a lifetime of unpaid labor courtesy of the Chan brothers.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:14
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Are we talking about New York's stupid ban on smoking or has Ming sucessfully jacked the thread?

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:16
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Actually, I believe the intent of the thread was to highlight the stupid excuse being given by the family, not to debate the merits of the ban.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:18
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It's DaShi. You never know with him.

Ming is offline Ming
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:19 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Imran... and how are doctors Chicken ****?

We are talking about no longer being able to afford the insurance they need to do their jobs... I don't call that being a Chicken ****, I call it just a sad commentary on the current tort system.

I would like to see a screening panel put in place for all medical malpractice suits. Made up of a few lawyers, a few doctors, and the majority made up of just real people. And let them decide whether a case should go forward.

The problem now is that unethical lawyers know that most hospitals and insurance companies are likely to settle just to avoid the incredible expense of a trial or possibly bad publicity... even if there is no real basis for the suit.

This is totally out of hand... What would be wrong with a panel to determine viability of a case. This would also solve the current backlogs in the courts. The time it takes for a civil case to go to trial now is just a joke, and an insult to the justice system.

I firmly believe that people have the right to sue... But only if it's at all reasonably justified.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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  Old Post 15-04-2003 01:31
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The doctors are chicken**** because they won't take responsibility for their actions. They won't set up 'screening panels', if you will, to check up on their own profession.

'Medical ethics' is a joke. It is all about saving the most money. Doesn't matter if the guy dies, at least we didn't spend too much .

quote:
This is totally out of hand... What would be wrong with a panel to determine viability of a case.


It denies a person his day in court. We Americans have decided it is VERY important that everyone have their day in court. If the case has no merit, then the judge can grant summary judgment.

Btw, how would this solve the backlog? It'd just be the creation of a new 'court'. This 'panel' would end up being backlogged, depriving people who need to go to court of their chance.

quote:
I firmly believe that people have the right to sue... But only if it's at all reasonably justified.


Then you don't believe that people have the right to sue. A 'reasonable' determination, before the evidence has been presented, takes away any right you may have to sue.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 15-04-2003 at 01:39

 
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