15-04-2003 21:26									#1
	Different UU for English Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think England gets cheated with that UU. For a huge chuck of the modern age they were the dominant empire on the planet. That unit just doesn't do them justice.

I'm thinking an replacement to the Musketman would be better. The British Regular or "Redcoat" unit would be a lot more useful. During the height of their empire the British Regulars were the elite fighting force of the world. I'm not sure what the best combination of traits would be best thoough. Maybe a +1 on both offense and defense OR +2 offense and same defense...

Anyone?

	15-04-2003 22:14									#2
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I play modded rules where the age of sail begins much sooner, namely with the Navigation tech, and where ships are much faster. The English UU can be interetsing in this meaning, for it can secure the expansion to unsettled islands, and is a kind of very mobile catapult.

	17-04-2003 02:50									#3
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If you ask me, both 4/4/1 and 3/5/1 could be OK.

	25-04-2003 19:53									#4
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I'm not so sure - having a late golden age can really turn the tables when you're behind. Getting it at gunpowder isn't that much earlier, true, but it coincides nicely with the over ocean trade era - which is what the British empire was all about.

Also, the British Army was extremely small and (at the time of the Napoleonic wars) was only about 50% English - if you count the Indian sepoy battalions too, it's only about 10% English! The reason they won a lot of battles was not so much superior ability as better discipline and command and control. Without the right leaders they often got a right kicking.

I agree, the man-o-war is a naff Civ unit - but it does the job.

	25-04-2003 20:36									#5
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Well, I think the use of the longbow originated with the English, but that's already a unit. I think the MOW is mostly meant to represent their traditional strength at sea. The main problem is that sea units just aren't as valuable as land units, and come much later, as many have mentioned. I do think that the Viking civ added by the expansion pack should have used a "longboat" unit instead of the galley, which would actually be useful because of its early appearance, but what equivalent could the Brits use? Coracles? Rather silly for a unique unit IMO. You could probably balance it by making the MOW a lot stronger, but I think the basic game mechanics need more fixing than the specifics. Not that that's an original comment by any means...

	25-04-2003 22:15									#6
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Eliminating the useless ironclad and strengthening the MOW would do more to improve the English than anything else.

I always thought the Greeks should have a Trireme instead of a Hoplite.

	26-04-2003 02:58									#7
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I'm thinking maybe a tank UU as they did have some of the first tanks. How bout it of course those were WW1 tanks and the tanks now are WW2.

	26-04-2003 06:05									#8
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The Gurkhas of course... thats what the English special unit should be... but then again I am from Nepal...

	26-04-2003 07:14									#9
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I think the English UU is a good idea, but ships need improvements.

I would move Ironclads to Industrialization or Corporation, giving the more accurate life of Wooden Frigates.

I would make the ships changed to:

Galley 30 1.1.3 (2)
Caravel 40 1.2.3 (3)
Galleon 60 1.2.4 (4)
Privateer 60 3.1.3
Frigate 60 4.3.4 (0) 6.1.2
-Man-O-War 60 5.3.4 (0) 8.1.2
Ironclad 80 8.8.4 (0) 8.1.2
Transport 100 1.4.5 (8)
Destroyer 120 16.12.6 (0) 10.1.3
Battleship 200 24.20.4 (0) 14.2.4
Submarine 100 15.8.3
Nuclear Sub 120 15.8.4
Aegis Cruiser 160 16.15.5 (0) 7.2.2
Carrier 200 1.9.4 (8 Aircraft)

I don't think the Hopilite is a bad choice for Greece

If it was Athens (S,C), they would have the Trireme
And Sparta (M,I) would have the Hoplite

But since they are together, it isn't a big deal

	26-04-2003 08:45									#10
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They couldn't have a trireme, because its advantage would have to be a 2 on attack (maybe a 2 on defense instead... not likely though), which would make it competitive even two eras later - not a good idea.

	26-04-2003 21:10									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Well, I think the use of the longbow originated with the English,

It was the Welsh.

I like to use the editor and have a few different UUs for every Civ.
Challanger 2 tank, anybody?

	27-04-2003 00:57									#12
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker They couldn't have a trireme, because its advantage would have to be a 2 on attack (maybe a 2 on defense instead... not likely though), which would make it competitive even two eras later - not a good idea.

Perhaps the whole naval thing could be rejigged. I've always thought that the ships were too slow.

And triremes are so cool.

	27-04-2003 04:49									#13
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Well, the moment they have a Welsh civ I'll eat my words, then.

	27-04-2003 08:57									#14
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I play a mod called the ArtilleryMod, which gives the English the longbowman and adds a new unit, the crossbowman. The stats are 5/1/1 for the long and 4/1/1 for the cross, and the long is a deadend unit.

	27-04-2003 16:10									#15
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When I first started with Civ3, I liked playing the English natch but soon realised that their UU was the biggest waste of space ever.

Some of the above suggestions for its replacement are interesting.

Gotta wonder if the testers ever tried playing with the English and actually reported back that the MOW was a useful unit...?

	27-04-2003 22:01									#16
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The problem as I see it is that since it is 'England', UUs like a 'redcoat' aren't applicable because they were British, not English. Presumably this is also why Elizabeth is Monarch rather than Victoria.

	27-04-2003 22:12									#17
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I think the distinction is minor. In terms of the niche they're supposed to fill, they're British.

	27-04-2003 22:38									#18
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Getting back to the UU heart of the thread - most colonizing nations had "ships of the line" at the time of the MoW. The biggest of these wasn`t English (Spanish, I believe). Here's my most recent idea for a new UU...

Whatever else happens, we have got
the Maxim gun
and they have not

How's about a Maxim gunner, not conscriptable, usual 1 movement, expensive but good defense? Kind of regular infantry but not requiring rubber. It's just an idea - feedback?

	27-04-2003 22:39									#19
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How about, instead of a UU, some sort of unique improvement that reduces corruption, allowing a larger empire? Or a second FP sort of thing.

	28-04-2003 16:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The problem as I see it is that since it is 'England', UUs like a 'redcoat' aren't applicable because they were British, not English. Presumably this is also why Elizabeth is Monarch rather than Victoria.

Vicky isn't the leader because hse didn't have any power, by the 19th century the monarch was just a figurehead.

As for the UU I play a mod sometimes where everyone gets the MOW and the english get the ironclad exclusively.

Another idea would eb to give them a dreadnought uu but teh battleship is already quite good so you would have to reduce its values.

	29-04-2003 18:54									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Well, the moment they have a Welsh civ I'll eat my words, then.

The Celts?

Seriously, endless fun could be made of a Welsh civ. Imagine how long their city names would be when they've got a place called " Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysilio
gogogoch".

Its true.

See

	30-04-2003 11:15									#22
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Historical Aside.

The Royal Navy's ships of the line (Man-O-War) during the 18th and early 19th centuries were virtually identical to every other major power's ships of the line. A significant difference was in gunnery training. The Royal Navy generally trained their gun crews using live amunition, whereas other nations only did mock firing drills and expected their crews to learn the rest when the cannonballs started flying.

This resulted in British ships being able to fire around twice as fast as foreign ships. At Trafalgar, Nelson's fleet was outnumbered by the French and Spanish (27 british vs 39 french and spanish (6 were frigates)). Superior leaderships and gunnery tipped the odds.

As to the English UU, I believe it should be the privateer. Although, this would give the English near total domination of the oceans until the advent of frigates This is kind of accurate since frigates were the ship of choice for hunting pirates.

	01-05-2003 22:55									#23
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Besides a superior navy, it was highly disciplined infantry that made England a force to be reckoned with. Either Musketman or Rifleman should be England's UU. +1/+1 or +0/+2 for att/def over the base unit.