16-04-2003 13:34									#1
	Plan to fight corruption Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Details about the plan to fight corruption

As I said in my post a few hours ago we should use the luxes of our rich land to make citizens happy. It's not that I care about them, is that if they are happy, the waste (shields corruption) is lowered.

To bring We Love The Ling Day (WLTKD) to a city we need:
- Size of 6 or greater.
- No unhappy citizens
- More happy than content citizens.

Geting rid of unhappy citizens:
Being a monarchy we can use our loyal soldiers to turn 3 of the unhappy citizens into content ones. A temple will turn 1 unhappy citizen into a content, and 2 citizens are born content. That will work for size 6. A Cathedral (half price because we are religious) will rise the number to 9. And, if we build the Sistine Chappel, 12!!! Even if we change to Republic later we can have no unhappy people in cities up to size 9! In adition, cathedrals would boost our culture rating.

Turning content citizens into happy citizens
We have 4 luxuries inside our borders (or will have once all our south is settled). That, without marketplace, allows us to have WLTKD in cities of size 6 and 7. With marketplace the number raises to 11. If needed, we can get wines from GoW and this will allow us to have WLTKD in cities up to size 17 (12 in fact, because after that size we will need to make unhappy citizens content first).

What need to be done:
Sooner or later, luxuries will get connected, marketplaces and cathedrals built. However, it could be interesting to pay a bit more attention to that and speed the building of such improvements.
But for this idea to work what really needs to be done is the construction of the Sistine Chappel. It is a very expensive project (OOC: 600 shields) and we should start building it right now or very soon. The most suitable place for that would be Madrid. Currently Madrid at size 5 produces 10 shields, that's 60 turns. With higher size and two hills mined this number can grow to 14, aprox. 42 turns.
We also need to research or get the needed tech (Theology I think it is) to build the Sistine Chappel.

If the plan works and we get the Sistine Chappel, then the building order in every city would be: temple, marketplace, cathedral and courthouse. Of course, oter things can be introduced in the queue between these 4 items as needed. The Temple could be omited in the internal cities because it's main purpose is to expand borders. Marketplace helps paying the maintenance cost of the cathedral and multiplies the effect of luxuries. cathedral lets the city grow to a decent size while still in WLTKD, and courthouse helps fighting corruption also in commerce.

Last edited by OliverFA on 16-04-2003 at 13:45

	16-04-2003 14:01									#2
	Re: Plan to fight corruption Full PM-box? Change here!

I think you have a very nice plan here regardless of whether or not we move the Palace or build a new one.

quote: Originally posted by OliverFA If the plan works and we get the Sistine Chappel, then the building order in every city would be: temple, marketplace, cathedral and courthouse. Of course, oter things can be introduced in the queue between these 4 items as needed. The Temple could be omited in the internal cities because it's main purpose is to expand borders. Marketplace helps paying the maintenance cost of the cathedral and multiplies the effect of luxuries. cathedral lets the city grow to a decent size while still in WLTKD, and courthouse helps fighting corruption also in commerce.

If you plan on building Cathedrals in every city, you need a Temple first; it is a prerequisite to the Cathedral.

Like I said though, this plan works very well overall with Spains trait's. We should definately plan on building the Sistine Chappel.

	16-04-2003 16:36									#3
	Re: Re: Plan to fight corruption Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by BigFree If you plan on building Cathedrals in every city, you need a Temple first; it is a prerequisite to the Cathedral.

Ops! I always build temples first in SP games so I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Like I said though, this plan works very well overall with Spains trait's. We should definately plan on building the Sistine Chappel.

Thanks for the comments

	16-04-2003 16:39									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Good work OliverFA

OOC :

But with these plans, indispensable to keep our monarchy viable for many more years, we should avoid new military expenses. Our military can grow again once most of our cities reach the 7 pop size, because every town could maintain 4 units for free.

If this option is taken, we have to play carefully to avoid military conflicts with our neighbours. I think the best thing to do is to upgrade our swordmens to med inf ASAP and only build spearmen or pikemen to defend our new cities.

Otherwise, we should build more military and go to fight against ND ASAP, in alliance with GoW.

If we take this last option, ALL our cities should begin to build military units and improvements immediately, because our 6 or 9 swordmen are not enough to assure a long and succesful military campaign.

The third option would be to limit our roleplay at a minimum and to switch to republic soon. This would reduce the corruption and give more money to invest on cities improvements or in the tech race, etc.

For that, we need a decision of our king and all our nobles.

I wouldn't do more posts in the military threads until we are clear about our mid-long term plans. We must decide NOW what policy to follow for the next 1000 years if we intend to win this game.

	16-04-2003 16:57									#5
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by astrologix The third option would be to limit our roleplay at a minimum and to switch to republic soon. This would reduce the corruption and give more money to invest on cities improvements or in the tech race, etc.

Just a quick note. Republic has the same corruption level than Monarchy. The difference is with the bonus trade, which gives 1 extra commerce for tile in which there is already commerce. the difference is also that no more units can instaure martial law.

	16-04-2003 17:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Republic has the same corruption level than Monarchy.

I don't agree :

Under monarchy the corruption is rated "Problematic"
and under republic the rating is "Nuisance".

See the editor values for the several government types.

	16-04-2003 17:40									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

OliverFA gives Justino Togas good reason to keep him as an advisor with this plan.

quote: Originally posted by astrologix But with these plans, indispensable to keep our monarchy viable for many more years, we should avoid new military expenses. Our military can grow again once most of our cities reach the 7 pop size, because every town could maintain 4 units for free.

Commander, we should know exactly how many more "free" units to expect in the recent future, coinciding with the expansion plans. With that information and careful planning, our military can be kept close to its limit at all times.

quote: Originally posted by astrologix If this option is taken, we have to play carefully to avoid military conflicts with our neighbours. I think the best thing to do is to upgrade our swordmens to med inf ASAP and only build spearmen or pikemen to defend our new cities.

I don't want to ever hear from the Spanish Commander, "...we have to play carefully to avoid military conflicts...".

We have a decent northern defense (the most important front), but our other fronts are vulnerable and need addressing. I agree that Med. Inf. and Pikemen upgrades are instrumental, and we should be saving now for those upgrades. How much will we need?

quote: Originally posted by astrologix Otherwise, we should build more military and go to fight against ND ASAP, in alliance with GoW. If we take this last option, ALL our cities should begin to build military units and improvements immediately, because our 6 or 9 swordmen are not enough to assure a long and succesful military campaign.

Unfortunately, I believe the window of opportunity for an offensive assault is now closing. We'll never know anyway, since the new King does not seem to favour the military.

quote: Originally posted by astrologix The third option would be to limit our roleplay at a minimum and to switch to republic soon. This would reduce the corruption and give more money to invest on cities improvements or in the tech race, etc.

I don't see this option as mutually exclusive from the first - Monarchy definitely improved Spain, and Republic will further. We do not worry about anarchy. More money = more upgrades, so I'm all for reducing corruption.

quote: Originally posted by astrologix I wouldn't do more posts in the military threads until we are clear about our mid-long term plans. We must decide NOW what policy to follow for the next 1000 years if we intend to win this game.

No. Intelligent choices can only be made if we see all our options from each minister. For instance, if you present military plans (offensive and defensive) that illustrate a current or coming weakness in number or types of units, that will affect production and monetary policy. The military should not be in a situation where it has to "make do" with whatever is leftover. (OOC - like Canada! )

	16-04-2003 20:19									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by astrologix I don't agree : Under monarchy the corruption is rated "Problematic" and under republic the rating is "Nuisance". See the editor values for the several government types.

Ok, I will check

	16-04-2003 21:41									#9
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Ok, I will check

OliverFA,

I've checked one of my old saved games.

480 AD : I was under Monarchy : 197 gold income from cities, 73 gold corrupted, then I switched to Republic

540 AD : after 5 anarchy turns, I was into Republic
income from cities : 325 gold
corrupted : 122 gold

In the two cases, the corruption was at 37 %.

You seem to have rigth

It should be checked with antother games, it's interesting

	17-04-2003 00:52									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

[OOC]
You were quicker than me!

I miss the times when I had PTW installed in my laptop computer at work

Well... in fact PTW is still installed, but my laptop is not at my work anymore, and I'm not working at the same place, and even some days I work at a different thing. Arg that's too complicated!

Ok, ok that's enough Thanks for checking it for me
[/OOC]

	17-04-2003 01:48									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

Perhaps we should fight corruption by rooting out the villians who perpetuate it with flowery talk and sunrise speeches about courthouses one day, forbidden palaces one day, and We Love the Corruption Day everyday until that one day does finally come.

Throw open the doors of the houses they live in! Reveal the light of justice to the vermin that eat holes in the productivity and commerce of our lands and dream that distant authority stay distant and impotent to stop their maniacal misdeeds!

Perpe-traitors! Where is the Inquisition? Inquisit or something, will you?

	17-04-2003 06:03									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One reason that the common people are unhappy is that they feel God is far away from them. Why? Because they have no place to feel God in their daily life. Of course, we all know the Holy Spirit does not need a special place to touch their souls, and it is the consecration that makes the Eucharist effective, not the building in which it is given.

But the common people are not so wise: they say to themselves, “This is where I work, and this is where I go to market, and this is where I draw water from the well, and this is where I go to have some squid and wine, so I need some special place to go to be with God, so why don’t the King and the Church provide me with one?”

We must build parish churches [ooc] temples [/ooc] and then great Cathedrals to soothe their spirits and prevent them from being so alienated they fall into some heresy.