18-04-2003 04:19									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I disbanded Madrid at the 670 bc save. These are the conclusions:

Overall before the disband:
39 shields (32 produced - 7 wasted)
66 commerce (50 produced - 16 wasted)

Overall after the disband:
29 shields (24 produced - 5 wasted)
56 commerce (45 produced - 11 wasted)

Cities (prod- corruption - gain/lose)

Pamplona shields: 6 - 0 (+1)
Pamplona commerce: 10 - 0 (+2)

Barcelona shields: 4 - 1 (0)
Barcelona commerce: 7 -3 (-2)

Zaragoza shields: 8 -1 (+2)
Zaragoza commerce: 9 - 1 (+2)

Santiago Shields: 1 - 1 (0)
Santiago Commerce: 9 - 2 (+1)

Vigo shields: 2 - 1 (0)
Vigo Commerce: 3 - 1 (+1)

Leon shields: 1 - 0 (0)
Leon commerce: 4 - 1 (+1)

Toledo shields: 2 -1 (-1)
Toledo commerce: 3 -1 (0)

You decide if the move worths it

	18-04-2003 04:28									#32
	Got spare money?

As the Earstern cities grow in size, the loss of shields and commerece will be more dramatic. With them being pretty small now, the loss isn't that great. You can't look at the losses in terms of shileds and commerce only; you have to look at it from a percentage standpoint. The sizes of these cities and it's production capacity (pre-corruption) will change over time.

If a city has 40% corruption and only produces 2 commerce, then you only lose 1. But if the same city produces 10 commerce it loses 4 with the corruption.

	18-04-2003 04:49									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I am looking at them from an absolute side because I'm not opposed to switching the capital to Pamplona later. I'm opposed to switching the capital now.

Last edited by OliverFA on 18-04-2003 at 04:55

	18-04-2003 04:52									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I also do not like this idea. Perhaps at some future date our culture, economy, and productivity will be benefited by this. However, for now, we are not. I believe we should hold off here.

Cardinal Calamari

	18-04-2003 09:07									#35
	Full PM-box? Change here!

What was the result of the meeting in the #civ3rp channel tonight?

I am leaning towards changing capitals, however, I am not interested in doing so later unless we somehow find the resolve to spend the 300 sheilds necessary to build it. I'd rather not have Madrid on Death Row ... unable to build any real improvements and just serving out it's time as a unit factory.

If we strike Madrid and rebuild it, NOW is better than later.

--Togas

	18-04-2003 18:23									#36
	Got spare money?

I didn't make it back after leaving for dinner. My impression was that E_T was in favour of the idea, and was assisting BigFree with the timing and details for the Madrid build queue leading up to the abandonment.

A couple of points I mentioned:

"The drop in score is double-edged - it could make us a target, or drop us "below the radar" for awhile (a good thing)"

"Another positive - our capital would no longer be a border city, exposed to attack."

And while mrmitchell was opposed to the idea, because of the established tradition and roleplay, I think that the move presents us with a unique opportunity for some interesting roleplay.

I have decided to support the capital move via abandonment.

	18-04-2003 18:30									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

After reviewing, I have decided to support this move.

	18-04-2003 23:10									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I reluctantly support the move. I know that the short-term cost to our empire should balance out eventually.

Our religious trait should help our culture rebound more swiftly.

The best solution for our corruption woes will be put into effect immediately.

We don't have to build the palace (which is astronomically expensive anyway)

Madrid has the assets in its WFs to help it recover quickly.

The two settlers (or more?) that Madrid will produce, combined with one from Pamplona next turn, 1 from Zaragoza soon, and one en route to the spices, means that four new cities will be created in a short time (and one unfortunately rebuilt )

The potential for becoming a target is no excuse for losing through idleness, IMHO.

	19-04-2003 18:02									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Now that the move has been decided, I just want to say two thigs:

1st) I am against the move. And my opinion won't change about that.

2nd) Amon all the things, my loyalties are with the kingdom. So once that the discussion it's over it doesn't make sense to continue arguing about it. I take the choice as it if was the choice I would have made and will do everything that it's in my hand to ensure it becomes a reality and follow the schedule.