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Do we change the capital of Spain?
This poll is closed. |
| Change it via Palace Jump |
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6 |
37.50% |
| Do not change it |
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9 |
56.25% |
| abstain |
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1 |
6.25% |
| Total: |
16 voters |
100% |
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dejon
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As I said in the other thread, I'm starting to warm up to the idea, but I would like to see some numbers and dates on the matter before deciding.
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OliverFA
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Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:27
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I've voted "Do not change it", understanding that this option includes the "Could be changed later".
Though I agree that sooner or later the capital should be moved from Madrid to another place (preferibly Pamplona) I see Madrid too much valuous to loose it.
We would lose 6 culture points per turn, out of a total production of 10 at the moment. Remember that ND has 10% more points than we have, and we must keep the production up to culturally defend our cities in the border.
We would lose 12 commerce per turn at size 5, 18 commerce at size 5 after the marketplace.
We would lose control over a very wide portion of land due to the size 3 influence of the city right now. Including some tiles of land that can help us see if enemy ships come to visit us. We would also lose the 287 acumulated points that we have now and the influence 4 (with more control of more sea tiles) would come much much later than the 119 turns we will have to wait now.
We would lose a barracks and a temple, having to rebuild them later. And honestly I don't think the money we can get from it pays that.
We would lose the highest production center. The only suitable to build a wonder at the moment. After the refundation many turns would happen until Madrid is in form again to build, because as far as I remember the excedent food is not carried over when city grows. Also have in mind that Toledo is using now the Madrid's wheat.
In conclusion: We would lose a great income in money, production and culture. Later, we would have to rebuild again what we already have in terms of city structures and influence, and we would probably lose the chance to build a wonder at the most suitable (by far) city in Spain
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dejon
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Are we planning to start a wonder in the near future? I haven't heard of any such plans, and the point is moot if there is none.
I'm fairly confident this game is not going to be decided by culture, so a one time loss at this stage in the game doesn't concern me. I also strongly doubt that either either Marlowa or Santiago could flip each other at this point. Does someone know for sure?
So we're left with temporary production and commerce lost in one city, versus increased production and commerce everywhere else. Like I said earlier, I'd love to see some numbers on this to help make the judgement. Additionally, what is the time frame for the plan - when would we do it, and how long before Madrid fully recovers. I know that someone said in the other thread that Madrid's population would recover in 20 turns, but what about the infrastructure?
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CiverDan
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I don't like this idea. The other cities have better things to do than build a palace. Madrid is a best culture producer and one of our more productive cities in general. IMHO place jumps this early in the game, while expansion is still going on is bad unless its in a bad location production-wise, which it isn't.
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dejon
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quote:
Originally posted by GodKing
The capitol needs to be moved, but I am not sure this is the time. War may be approaching fast, and we will loose such a high production center at a potentially crucial time. I will hold my vote for now until I have had time to think about this some more. |
Ah, GK makes me think of a dangerous possibility...ND may see the palace jump as an opportunity to attack - while one of our top production cities is rebuilding.
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OliverFA
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Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
Are we planning to start a wonder in the near future? I haven't heard of any such plans, and the point is moot if there is none. |
AFAIK the only wonder that has been suggested has been the Sistine Chappel, sugested by myself in the plan for fighting corruption. I would like to start this wonder as soon as the marketplace is finished.
quote:
I'm fairly confident this game is not going to be decided by culture, so a one time loss at this stage in the game doesn't concern me. I also strongly doubt that either either Marlowa or Santiago could flip each other at this point. Does someone know for sure? |
I'm concerned not by the lose of the global culture, but the lose of the only city with influence 3. I think we will be safer after Madrid grows to influence 4 and we control much more sea tiles so we can see enemy ships coming.
quote:
So we're left with temporary production and commerce lost in one city, versus increased production and commerce everywhere else. Like I said earlier, I'd love to see some numbers on this to help make the judgement. |
Hope this helps:
Currently, Spain produces 39 shields. 10 of them (a bit more than 25% by Madrid). Only 7 shields are lost by corruption, 1 in Pamplona, Barcelona and Vigo, 3 in Zaragoza. However Zaragoza is not very likely to increase its production because it doesn't have many shield rich tiles near.
Currently, Spain produces 64 commerce, 12 of them at Madrid (18 after the marketplace is built, more when the city grows). That's 19% of the total commeerce production.
So yes, we are winning some commerce and shields but... are they enough to compensate for the great amount we are about to lose for many turns? Also, the capital shift won't have such a radical impact. It's only moving it 4 tiles. Santiago will continue as much corrupt as it is now.
I agree to change the capital city, but I think it's too early, and I would do it throug less radical ways.
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by dejon
Additionally, what is the time frame for the plan - when would we do it, and how long before Madrid fully recovers. I know that someone said in the other thread that Madrid's population would recover in 20 turns, but what about the infrastructure? |
Madrid would fully recover (to it's current size of 5) in 13 turns.
Size 1 --> 2 in 4 turns
Size 2 --> 3 in 7 turns
Size 3 --> 4 in 10 turns
Size 4 --> 5 in 13 turns
Size 5 --> 6 in 16 turns
These turn numbers are inclusive; it would take Madrid 16 turns to go from size 1 to size 6
The infrasturcture of Madrid was a Barracks and a Temple. A Barracks would take 40 shields and a temple is 30 shields. A Temple could be built in 9 turns. The Barracks could be finnished in 7, if it followed the Temple.
The '20' turns was what the whole plan would take from the point of implication;
Madrid building 2 settler's then being abandoned and rebuilt on same turn= 7 Turns
Madrid regrowing to original size= 13 turns
These two items are additive in that one follows directly after the other; hence the '20' turns
If we were to include the rebuilding of Madrid's infrastructure; Madrid would have it rebuilt in 16 turns after it was abandoned and rebuilt.
So, in conclusion, if you take the into consideration that Madrid is building a settler for another location, as well as it's own, you can conclude that 3 turns are not lost on productivity in Madrid, this bringing the lost productivity turns down a bit.
We could also just keep that 2nd settler at the Madrid site and add him to Madrid when it is rebuilt; instantly having a size 3 city that would grow to size 5 in 6 turns! The Temple and Barracks could then be rebuilt in a total of 12 turns from the point of being rebuilt.
I hope this gives some of you a look at the kind of numbers we are talking about. The loss of production from madrid is real. But it is far outweighed by the gain in production and commerce throughout the rest of Spain. Please vote for the "jump, " it will help us to become less dependent on others for Technologies and we'll be better able to maintain our current military force while building Spains infrastructure.
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Fibrizzo
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I think that it would be better to finish the REX and then build a palace at Pamplona, instead of losing now all that has been invested in Madrid.
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OliverFA
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Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:27
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Can someone tell how much are we gaining? Honestly I don't know the exact formula right now, but I don't see that moving the capital a few tiles would result in that amazing gain of shields and commerce. What I see now is that our main production center (1/4 of shields and 1/5 of commerce) is lost for some time and we have to rebuild the temple, the barracks and our area of influence.
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:27
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Let it be known:
IF we agree to do this, it will happen now, not later. I know some are worried that ND will see this as a sign of weakness on our part, however any weakness would be temporary.
Waiting to do this later is unacceptable. If Madrid is to be eventually "moved", there's no point in building a marketplace there or any wonders. They would be disbanded with Madrid. Madrid would simply sit and build military units for us and workers until the day comes that we decide to go through this ... and frankly, my vision for Spain is for us to build a nation that can financially afford it's military, not a nation that is burried in high upkeep costs and gpt deals because we cannot research.
It would be prudent of us to add a few workers or settlers to "New Madrid", however, we also need workers and settlers to fuel our expansion to the north and south, so that option should be carefully weighed.
This topic is one of the most difficult decisions we have yet undertaken, and I am glad to read so much discussion on it.
--Togas
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dejon
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quote:
Originally posted by Togas
This topic is one of the most difficult decisions we have yet undertaken, and I am glad to read so much discussion on it.
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Absolutely. I see several people voted early - those people should feel free to request a manual change to their vote, if they happen to change their mind during the course of the discussion.
My vote could still go either way - I really want to hear the opinions of more of our members, and not just E_T and roadcage.
Let your voices be heard, everyone!
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pikesfan
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Corruption does not only affect money, but also shields. If we disband Madrid, we will also lose a great shield powerhouse, not only now, but in the future because we will lose shields permanently to corruption in Madrid, for the Madrileños will be so offended at their King’s abandonment that they will not want to work except with great reluctance.
One day we may have new ways of building things and new ways of extracting resources from the hills around Madrid, ones that will give us many times more shields than can be counted. [ooc] Factory [/ooc]
In the time it takes us to do all this moving business, what could we have built in Madrid? How many swordsmen could we have armed? What buildings could we have made? And how many horses and donkeys will it take to cart everything to the new palace? For no one of any consequence will want to stay in a backwater, not even me, and I can tell you the price of horses and donkeys and carts will go through the roof, and my treasure chest will be sore depleted, for unlike some of the great nobles of the realm, I don’t have vast gatherings of retainers and servants and slaves to carry my littlest and biggest things about while I recline in my litter and get squid dropped into my mouth. I have three sisters, a maidservant for each of them, a cook, a between-stairs girl, a washerwoman, a manservant for me, and a little boy to do the running about. So it’s me and my manservant who have to do the carrying for the household. The maidservants are overburdened already, even though they are strapping peasant girls who are used to hard work. Unlike some people, I certainly don’t have the money to feed a) girls whose only claim to fame is that their breasts are like ripe peaches, b) sausage boys.
I wish I could have in my household a little man who does nothing but draw curious pictures of hands and things; no, look, I have to load my donkey myself and walk beside it wherever I go!
If we are worried about money, could His Majesty not consider a new type of government I have heard about called Constitutional Monarchy [ooc]Republic[/ooc], which somehow makes the realm richer as the King can devolve responsibility and doesn’t have to keep an eye on everything all the time? Instead of having the one Cort, he could have many Cortes, one for each province in the realm.
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OliverFA
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Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:27
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As I see it, the question is not if the palace will jump sooner or later, which everyone seems to agree. The question is: Would be win anything by doing the jumping now and in this way? I say we lose our main production center for several turns. A production center that would become even better if we continued improving it instead of disbanding it and then having to rebuild what we already have, plus the cities that benefit from less corruption are cities with small size and production, and we won't see the difference till later, when this change could have been done by other less radical ways.
Bold ideas seem cool, because they always come with the "seasoned strategist" feeling ("Hey I do this that seems to be a bad move, but after a bit time... look! This is better than before!") but I don't think that's the case.
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astrologix
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On Earth
Jun 2002
time: 06:27
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In military terms, jumping the palace will give us a better position for conquered ND cities.
Currently Anagramaskus is 18 tiles far from Madrid and Dar-El Killam 19 tiles far.
For comparison, Vigo is 10 tiles far from Madrid.
If the palace is jumped to Pamplona, Anagramaskus will be 12 tiles far and dar-El-Killam 15 tiles far from Pamplona.
If we found a city at the extreme south of our lands, this city will be 18 tiles far from Madrid and 14 tiles far from Pamplona.
Thinking on a future war against ND , Pamplona will be a much better site for our capital than Madrid.
And thinking on the future FP site, it would let us the freedom to build it on the current ND lands (Dar-El-Killam, for exemple) rather than in our south lands. With the Pamplona position, we can think on a future profitable and manageable conquest war.
In REX terms, I don't think that jumping the Palace now will give a penalty, because the one of the 2 settlers from Madrid could build a city at the North of Madrid (the 9-9-9 city). And Pamplona can continue to build settlers for a while, even if it becomes the capital.
For these and the other reasons exposed by others nobles above, I vote YES to jumping the palace NOW.
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16-04-2003 23:11
Thank you OliverFA and BigFree for the numbers and additional information.
We could even squeeze a 3rd settler from Mardid if we wanted too.
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