17-04-2003 08:45									#1
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If tomorrow it 'leaked' that all major sports organizations (NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. etc.) had predetermined results, for suspense and 'entertainment purposes', would you still watch them? That is to say, the results are pre-determined (who won and who lost, and a rough idea of by what margin) but the actual athletes and such were still "real", obviously.

	17-04-2003 08:50									#2
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how is this an interesting hypothetical?

	17-04-2003 08:50									#3
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No... I don't watch "pro" wrestling either...

	17-04-2003 08:57									#4
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No, you can tell it's fake.

	17-04-2003 09:00									#5
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No. But I don't watch sport anyway.

	17-04-2003 09:05									#6
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I do watch pro wrestling, It's really funny and entertaining. But real sports being predetermined... no way! I wouldn't watch them anymore.

	17-04-2003 09:07									#7
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No, it'd ruin everything.

	17-04-2003 09:08									#8
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even if you didn't know what the results were beforehand and the athletes were still amazing?

	17-04-2003 09:13									#9
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you mean they aren't???

of course, i watch reruns of old games - sure i know the outcome but it doesn't really bother me, it loses something from the game, but its still very enjoyable to watch

	17-04-2003 09:13									#10
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They'd be amazing... in their acting abilities.

	17-04-2003 09:14									#11
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Being a Chicago fan... there is NO STINKING WAY I would watch fake sports. However, I might want to go out and kill all the script writers that have the Cubs out of the World Series for all these years

	17-04-2003 09:15									#12
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quote: even if you didn't know what the results were beforehand and the athletes were still amazing?

But I'd KNOW it was rigged, and that would ruin it.

	17-04-2003 09:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great you mean they aren't??? of course, i watch reruns of old games - sure i know the outcome but it doesn't really bother me, it loses something from the game, but its still very enjoyable to watch

basically what i wanted to say.

	17-04-2003 10:26									#14
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quote: But I'd KNOW it was rigged, and that would ruin it.

Isn't it the Drama and athleticism that makes you watch, though? I mean, what has really changed between the two...you still don't know who is going to win, there's still athleticism being displayed, and it's still dramatic...i guess I don't understand what would change between the two.

	17-04-2003 10:29									#15
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While I find watching classic games replays... I would not be interested in watching a sport with a script.

It's not the same... I know it's REAL and ANYTHING can happen... not what some script writer puts together. Those unbelieveable finishes are just that... not a script.

	17-04-2003 10:49									#16
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That would suck if your an athelete...

coach: Ok Jones today you need to break your right fibula...good luck out there

	17-04-2003 10:53									#17
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Are you obliquely approaching the Determinism vs Freewill problem orange?

	17-04-2003 15:15									#18
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More likely he's approaching the "Pro wrestling doesn't really suck, honest - look, I'll try and prove it to you" problem.

Seriously, though, I agree with Ming.

	17-04-2003 15:25									#19
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It doesn't
Only fun soap opera on tv.

	17-04-2003 15:40									#20
	Re: Pre-determined Sports Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by orange If tomorrow it 'leaked' that all major sports organizations (NHL, NBA, NFL, MLB, etc. etc.) had predetermined results, for suspense and 'entertainment purposes', would you still watch them? That is to say, the results are pre-determined (who won and who lost, and a rough idea of by what margin) but the actual athletes and such were still "real", obviously.

No. This is the reason why I'm not a big gambling advocate and I believe that the NCAA (and the individual schools of course) needs to be ever vigilant in keeping gambling off campuses, and especially away from atheletes.

Kennesaw Mountain Landis might have had his issues, but he was dead-on correct when he asserted that gambling by players and managers would've destroyed the game.

	17-04-2003 15:46									#21
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quote: Kennesaw Mountain Landis

Is that somebody's name?? Holey moley...

	17-04-2003 15:49									#22
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Yeah, KML was the first baseball commissioner (from 1920-1944). He was brought in by the owners to help fix Baseballs gambling and image problem. He was the one who instituted the lifetime ban for gambling on baseball policy which is still in effect today. I misspelled his first name, but that's OK.

Here's his Hall of Fame page: http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/h...dis_kenesaw.htm

Here's another history of the man, including his decisions (far more informative and less ass-kissing than the HoF site above): http://www.pubdim.net/baseballlibra...aw_Mountain.stm

	17-04-2003 18:57									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great you mean they aren't??? of course, i watch reruns of old games - sure i know the outcome but it doesn't really bother me, it loses something from the game, but its still very enjoyable to watch

i agree with this too. especially the cal, stanford game with "the play". not only was it great to see elway drive back and put his team up it was equally great to see cal execute "the play" and win the game.

	17-04-2003 19:22									#24
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Yes... If "the play" happened in a scripted game, I would just say... they need new script writers and be pissed. Since it REALLY did happen, it is now called "the play" and will live on forever in the History of College Football.

	17-04-2003 19:39									#25
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I just find it interesting that no one would watch pro-sports if they were scripted. I honestly can't understand what would be different between the two...especially if you've gone all these years 'not knowing about it'.

	17-04-2003 19:47									#26
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Would you play a MP civ game if you pre-determined who would win, and how?

	17-04-2003 20:44									#27
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quote: Originally posted by orange I honestly can't understand what would be different between the two...especially if you've gone all these years 'not knowing about it'.

Because the knowledge of knowing that all the past was scripted, yet presented as a test of skills would disgust me. All the records... championships... all the great plays... would become meaningless, and I would see no reason to want to support such future activities by viewing it or paying to go see it.

The magic would be gone... and I would then find real tests of athletic competitions to enjoy, ones that weren't fixed or scripted.

	18-04-2003 02:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by orange I just find it interesting that no one would watch pro-sports if they were scripted. I honestly can't understand what would be different between the two...especially if you've gone all these years 'not knowing about it'.

Well, ming said the same thing effectively as I'm going to but anway. Believe it or not, sports is mostly about winning. Or maybe it's a great achievemt if the underdog gets even 3rd place. Obvious, yes? So basically you see bunch of guys jumping around working out the script. Whoever the winner is, they win because the others let them, not because they had a better game. Maybe you can't see it from their play , but you know it. If I didn't know, and couldn't tell, sure it wouldn't bother me at all. Besides, easiest way to get good looking game is when everyone is actually trying to win. Also, there are people who even watch dilbert, I bet there'll be some who will still watch.

quote: Isn't it the Drama and athleticism that makes you watch, though?

If that's why you watch... You really should watch pro wrestling, if you allready don't. I'm pretty sure even the commentators have the script, so they can direct the viewer to see what they are supposed to see, if the other guy is supposed to do something, and it ends up looking vague they will explain it and go with it anyway. One can only stomach certain amount of it thought, I wouldn't want every sport to be like that. It's not really a sport to be honest, more like show acrobatics. It does look fake however, but it still looks good. And the plots are just too much.

	18-04-2003 02:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Would you play a MP civ game if you pre-determined who would win, and how?

that describes every game of civ2 MP I've ever played.

As for the question, I'd still watch but not as much.

	18-04-2003 02:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by orange Isn't it the Drama and athleticism that makes you watch, though?

If every sport was scripted and I knew it, I wouldn't watch it.

Why?

I watch for the competition, of which, drama and athleticism are merely a part of.

If the game was decided by a script already, there would be zero competition. You may not know who is going to win, but you do know it's already decided.


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