18-04-2003 02:30									#1
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Without knowing the map, our start, and so forth, what to research first - go for mapmaking, or iron and swords?

Here is the place to discuss.

	18-04-2003 02:53									#2
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UUMMMM

It is all contextual my good man. What we should research depends completly on what the map is like. How close to water we are, the proximity of other civs (taking into account their aggressiveness ratings) and landspace availiable. Without such information we are naval gazing.

Sean.

	18-04-2003 02:58									#3
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As Vikings I normally go for Bronze, then go after map making, if it is an island, horses if not. I rely more heavily on archers than I do playing other civs because they upgrade to berserks later...

	18-04-2003 02:58									#4
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i really think this is completely map dependent, but i'm willing to discuss it a bit

as the vikings, we start with pottery and warrior code.

with all the 24 civs in the game, this is the breakdown of relevent traits, with ours removed:

trait # civs tech cost
com 8 alpha 5
mil 1 wheel 4
sci 7 bronze 3
rel 9 cere 2
ind 7 mason 4

i list these because any intelligent civ player knows a technology grows cheaper with the more people that know it , and because we might be able to trade for some as the game moves on.

looking at this chart, it should be noted that ceremonial burial will be mega cheap (comparitively).

i just ran a test, with all 24 civs in the game.

if we start on a grassland (ie, have 3 trade in our capital square) and have no other trade at all, these are the costs of avilible techs /w 100% sci:

bronze: 34
masonry: 40
Alphabet: 40
The Wheel: 40
Ceremonial: 22

now, if we can get more trade, ie, if we start on a river (the city square maxes out @ 3, if another tile has +1 trade), these are the costs:

bronze: 25
masonry: 34
Alphabet: 40
The Wheel: 34
Ceremonial: 17

if the hallowed halls of valhalla bless us with 2 surplus trade (ie, a fish), we get this:

bronze: 20
masonry: 27
Alphabet: 34
The Wheel: 27
Ceremonial: 14

so, i'd say we should first shoot fir ceremonial burial (imagine that), unless it seems that someone is absoletely on our continent, that we could trade for it.

by the time we get ceremonial burial, we should have a grasp on what our land ooks like, and could be in a more privelidged suitation to decide what path to take.

	18-04-2003 03:01									#5
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Uber goes builder on us!!!

	18-04-2003 03:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Uber goes builder on us!!!

i got my archers already

it's mostly a "placeholder" tech, to buy time until we can decide what to do.

because research doesn't carry over like production does, it's wither pick the shortest one or dont do a tech at all.

	18-04-2003 04:12									#7
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In deity games, you need the temples anyway to keep your citizens from complaining about yout despotic rule, not to mention keeping you ingrateful citizens from overthrowing the governor.

	18-04-2003 06:35									#8
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Why? I just keep putting the slider up until they're happy.

Unless we've been given a very interesting position, we're likely to get at least one tech from a hut. So starting on the cheapest on turn 1 is probably sensible.

It's just a shame that settlerless archer rushes work far less well on deity. On Emperor, getting Bronze Working from a hut fast would actually be useful.

	18-04-2003 12:08									#9
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i really think this is completely map dependent, but i'm willing to discuss it a bit as the vikings, we start with pottery and warrior code. with all the 24 civs in the game, this is the breakdown of relevent traits, with ours removed: trait # civs tech cost com 8 alpha 5 mil 1 wheel 4 sci 7 bronze 3 rel 9 cere 2 ind 7 mason 4 i list these because any intelligent civ player knows a technology grows cheaper with the more people that know it , and because we might be able to trade for some as the game moves on. looking at this chart, it should be noted that ceremonial burial will be mega cheap (comparitively). i just ran a test, with all 24 civs in the game. if we start on a grassland (ie, have 3 trade in our capital square) and have no other trade at all, these are the costs of avilible techs /w 100% sci: bronze: 34 masonry: 40 Alphabet: 40 The Wheel: 40 Ceremonial: 22 now, if we can get more trade, ie, if we start on a river (the city square maxes out @ 3, if another tile has +1 trade), these are the costs: bronze: 25 masonry: 34 Alphabet: 40 The Wheel: 34 Ceremonial: 17 if the hallowed halls of valhalla bless us with 2 surplus trade (ie, a fish), we get this: bronze: 20 masonry: 27 Alphabet: 34 The Wheel: 27 Ceremonial: 14 so, i'd say we should first shoot fir ceremonial burial (imagine that), unless it seems that someone is absoletely on our continent, that we could trade for it. by the time we get ceremonial burial, we should have a grasp on what our land ooks like, and could be in a more privelidged suitation to decide what path to take.

I agree; it's the same kind of strategy I use when I play an Expansionist civ. After learning more of our surroundings, then we can make better plans about our tech route.

	18-04-2003 22:30									#10
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So far, the discussion has ignored that differenal in costs between how much it takes for us to reserach anything and how much it costs for any of the other 23 AIs to reserach anything, and how unlikely it is to beat 23 AIs to anything in ancient era when their sliders are all on 80%+ and having lower reserach costs.

There's little point in actively reseraching on Deity in early game. It will be much, much cheaper to buy or extort techs than actively reseraching.

The only real question in my mind is would we want to invest 1 gold per turn in a very expensive tech that the AIs bypass in hope of getting it virutally for free, or is that 1 gold per turn better used building up the tresury.

On Happiness: we can use the following to keep order initally.

1. 2 Warriors per city as martial law. (definately)

2. Perhaps there's a luxary within 3 tiles from our capital that can be connected soon.

3. REX if there's not an oppoent too close, keeping our population down.

4. If there is an oppoent close, a state of war seems to make an extra citizen happy.

	18-04-2003 22:44									#11
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hi ,

Iron , this way we can see where to build future cities , ...

have a nice day

	19-04-2003 01:55									#12
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panag - we can't research Iron Working right off the bat. We'd probably extort it anyway. Please keep this thread relevant.

	19-04-2003 10:12									#13
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There will be some techs we need to get ASAP and we can't always rely on the civs closest to us getting them, nor can we rely on them actually allowing us to buy them! Until we get to Berzerkers I think some research should be done, but from then on the bulk I imagine will be spoils of war and purchases.

	20-04-2003 04:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker panag - we can't research Iron Working right off the bat. We'd probably extort it anyway. Please keep this thread relevant.

hi ,

skywalker , in what possible way is the message not related or relevant , ...

how we get it does not matter , that we need it ASAP , now that matters , ....

have a nice day

	20-04-2003 16:56									#15
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Ceremonial burial sounds like a good idea, since IMHO we want to get to Monarchy ASAP. The only other possile option is Bronze Working, since we might want teh warly defense. There is no real reason to research Horseback Riding since any early attack will be with archers anyways. Alphabet & Masonry will just take too long.