18-04-2003 03:48									#31
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I'm a communist (a socialist really), but I'm often speaking about what a reasonable policy would be in the capitalist economy, that's why I sound like a social-democrat sometimes.
In a socialistic society, women would have carreer guaranties and decent welfare during their pregnancy/education of their children anyways, without the needs of wishful thinking.

Besides, I think the workplace should reward people according to their work, and welfare should make sure everybody affords a decent way of life, even in a socialistic society. To me, it is only natural a diligent and competent worker gets more money than a lazy person who arrives as late as possible and leaves as soon as possible.

	18-04-2003 03:57									#32
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This is obviously wrong. I think men and women should be treated the same. And to spite Agathon, men should be even allowed to women's gyms!

quote: welfare should make sure everybody affords a decent way of life,

That's where we differ. I am more of an egalitarian technocrat.

In regards to financial security during pregnancy: I think that this should go according to which child is it, in connection to planned population statistics, to prevent the rise of women that make babies for a living. Taking care of children is a different issue.

	18-04-2003 04:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I thought you were a communist? Payment has nothing to do with the value of the output, but the need of the individual.

Yeah, but if you're a rational communist you realise that the communist state isn't going to be feasible for a very long time (Marx actually says this but nobody listened) and that it will come about quite naturally as capitalism works out its own contradictions.

But we have to work out what to do right now, within the confines of a mixed economy.

	18-04-2003 04:03									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel This is obviously wrong. I think men and women should be treated the same. And to spite Agathon, men should be even allowed to women's gyms!

Before this spirals out of control. I'd like to point out that I only said this was justifiable when men behaved very badly (same goes if women were behaving very badly). That actually happened in a case I know of, so they had to have a women only day. I'm talking about things like guys purposely wearing shorts and arranging themselves so that women could see their equipment.

Otherwise I'm all for mixed gyms.

Hell, I'm for mixed showers!!!!!!



*slaps self*

	18-04-2003 04:08									#35
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quote: We don't want people to have too many children, otherwise we adults would spend even more of our lives working to support an ever expanding welfare system.

Then I'll ask the question again. Can you give a number of children for each mother that would be considered 'too many' for a welfare state? At which point would the rider costs become 'too great' for the society to bear?

	18-04-2003 04:11									#36
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quote: Before this spirals out of control. I'd like to point out that I only said this was justifiable when men behaved very badly (same goes if women were behaving very badly). That actually happened in a case I know of, so they had to have a women only day. I'm talking about things like guys purposely wearing shorts and arranging themselves so that women could see their equipment.

This is not a reason to ban guys. It is making generalizations based on a gender. If a woman doesn't like it, she can proceed in a standard procedure. Ask to stop, complain to management.

In any case, I don't complain when "mature" women come in skimpy tight clothing to the gym.

	18-04-2003 04:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Then I'll ask the question again. Can you give a number of children for each mother that would be considered 'too many' for a welfare state? At which point would the rider costs become 'too great' for the society to bear?

Of course I can't. Presumably you'd need an economist and social statistician for that.

All I'm claiming is that allowing people to have children for "free" may generate perverse outcomes, where people have more children than they might otherwise have had - because someone else is paying for it. The problem is that everyone is paying for it and it would become a drag on the economy.

	18-04-2003 04:15									#38
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quote: Then I'll ask the question again. Can you give a number of children for each mother that would be considered 'too many' for a welfare state? At which point would the rider costs become 'too great' for the society to bear?

1 is not enough, 5 is too many.

	18-04-2003 04:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel This is not a reason to ban guys. It is making generalizations based on a gender. If a woman doesn't like it, she can proceed in a standard procedure. Ask to stop, complain to management.

It's not the only solution, but the simplest one handy at the time given the magnitude of the problem and the trouble policing it (this was the sort of gym where you get your own key and there is no telling who might be there when you go - I used to go at 1 in the morning sometimes).

quote: In any case, I don't complain when "mature" women come in skimpy tight clothing to the gym.

I definitely think there should be laws against that.

	18-04-2003 04:19									#40
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quote: It's not the only solution, but the simplest one handy at the time given the magnitude of the problem and the trouble policing it (this was the sort of gym where you get your own key and there is no telling who might be there when you go - I used to go at 1 in the morning sometimes).

I guess there is no problem with interning the japanese too? ( using a hyperbole to demonstrate that this is wrong )

	18-04-2003 04:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I'm a communist (a socialist really), but I'm often speaking about what a reasonable policy would be in the capitalist economy, that's why I sound like a social-democrat sometimes. In a socialistic society, women would have carreer guaranties and decent welfare during their pregnancy/education of their children anyways, without the needs of wishful thinking. Besides, I think the workplace should reward people according to their work, and welfare should make sure everybody affords a decent way of life, even in a socialistic society. To me, it is only natural a diligent and competent worker gets more money than a lazy person who arrives as late as possible and leaves as soon as possible.

Spiffor, I KNEW you were not really a communist. You are a compassionate conservative!

	18-04-2003 04:28									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: It's not the only solution, but the simplest one handy at the time given the magnitude of the problem and the trouble policing it (this was the sort of gym where you get your own key and there is no telling who might be there when you go - I used to go at 1 in the morning sometimes). I guess there is no problem with interning the japanese too? ( using a hyperbole to demonstrate that this is wrong )

it depends on whether they were a real threat or not.

	18-04-2003 04:29									#43
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Agathon:

Then give your opinion. That's what I am really after, what you mean by too many children.

Azazel:

quote: 1 is not enough, 5 is too many.

Why five? I'm just curious as to why you picked five and not four or six.

	18-04-2003 04:31									#44
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Ned: I am sorry, but I don't think that compassionate conservatives believe in a state-run economy.

Agathon: at the time, it was the easiest solution possible, and at the time, the US intelligence couldn't know about the level of threat they presented. But we're getting sidetracked.

	18-04-2003 04:31									#45
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Agathon: Then give your opinion. That's what I am really after, what you mean by too many children.

Like I said - so many that it begins to be a drag on the economy. I have no idea how many this would be per person. Ask an economist.

	18-04-2003 04:34									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, I KNEW you were not really a communist. You are a compassionate conservative!

Erm, I think a capitalist economy is fundamentally suicidial and full of injustice, and a socialist economy would be much better if it had a democratic government along... I think capitalism has worse foundations than socialism, and the goal of a greater good for humanity can be properly reached only by a proper socialist economy.
I also am very strongly in favor of abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and atheism, even though I don't want atheism to be imposed.
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not a conservative as far as I think of. I am only conservative in the regard that I look every hype or new idea with suspicion/caution before judging if it's better or not.

I'm a "communist" in the sense that I am a member of the French communist party (whose ideology is much more socialist than commnist). I do not believe in Marx's utopia of communism.

	18-04-2003 04:37									#47
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quote: Why five? I'm just curious as to why you picked five and not four or six.

Why one is not enough should be rather obvious.

2 is ok. 3 is ok. 4 is quite a lot, and if all the women would have 4 kids, we'll be in a problem. But considering the fact that some women won't have kids at all, and some will have only one, this should be fine, plus, I wouldn't want to place too rigid barriers on such a personal issue.

5 is too much, IMO.

But, that is a rule of thumb, barely so, even. We should look at statistics, when determining this sort of things.