18-04-2003 02:43									#1
	Women and payment? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why is there a difference in the wage between women and men? If they are hired to do the same job, shouldn't they also get the same wage?

I know lots of women who works harder/better than the males at their working place, but still they get less payed than the men...

Why's that? If they work harder/better than guys, then why doesn't they get more money than them? Or atleast the same amount?

	18-04-2003 02:48									#2
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Don't start this again. It's enough trouble persuading some people here to let them join a golf club.

	18-04-2003 02:49									#3
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Performance should determine compensation. Not gender.

	18-04-2003 02:51									#4
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aah, I was hoping for a thread on suggestions for soliciting and prostiitution.

	18-04-2003 02:52									#5
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Women deserve more. Don't you agree Agathon?

	18-04-2003 02:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Don't start this again. It's enough trouble persuading some people here to let them join a golf club.

You mean that golf thread was about this? I just thought it was about golf, not about which gender you are... I didn't look at it, since I'm not interested in Golf...

	18-04-2003 02:58									#7
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*Walks in, prepared to make joke*

quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 aah, I was hoping for a thread on suggestions for soliciting and prostiitution.

Drat.

*Walks out*

	18-04-2003 03:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov *Walks in, prepared to make joke* Drat. *Walks out*

That's alright, your joke probably wasn't that funny anyway.



ACK!

	18-04-2003 03:02									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Don't start this again. It's enough trouble persuading some people here to let them join a golf club.

Two entirely different things. Equal pay is the only way to go here.

Of course, you'll argue that they should be paid more because men are pigs.......

ACK!

	18-04-2003 03:05									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Of course, you'll argue that they should be paid more because men are pigs.......

You're implying that men aren't pigs??? Clearly you're a racist!

	18-04-2003 03:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger You're implying that men aren't pigs??? Clearly you're a racist!

I'm a sexy racist!!!

Or is that a racy sexist?

ACK!

	18-04-2003 03:09									#12
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Of course they are!

All of them.

Edit: X-post Tuberski.

	18-04-2003 03:11									#13
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Women deserve more. Don't you agree Agathon?

Nice ambiguity there.

Isn't the cause of the gap in a large part that women take time off to have children (or it is feared that they will) and this affects their career prospects?

I know people say that having kids is a choice a woman makes, but if they all stopped we'd be pretty screwed as a race. Given that they don't get paid for the socially and economically useful act of having children, something ought to be done.

Perhaps you should change from ACK! to OINK! TB.

	18-04-2003 03:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Of course they are! All of them.

Especially the ones that grope women in gyms.

	18-04-2003 03:12									#15
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Whatever happened to

"From each according to his abilty, to each according to their needs."

So the pay should depend upon the relative needs of women and men, should it not?

	18-04-2003 03:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 aah, I was hoping for a thread on suggestions for soliciting and prostiitution.

...a kindred spirit..

	18-04-2003 03:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Whatever happened to "From each according to his abilty, to each according to their needs." So the pay should depend upon the relative needs of women and men, should it not?

Not if we are going to keep a mixed economy. The problem is that women don't actually earn a formal wage or salary for the domestic work they do. None of this is added to GDP so economists conveniently forget about it.

	18-04-2003 03:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Nice ambiguity there. Isn't the cause of the gap in a large part that women take time off to have children (or it is feared that they will) and this affects their career prospects? I know people say that having kids is a choice a woman makes, but if they all stopped we'd be pretty screwed as a race. Given that they don't get paid for the socially and economically useful act of having children, something ought to be done. Perhaps you should change from ACK! to OINK! TB.

Maybe you should read more carefully, I believe women should be paid the same regardless. Having babies should have nothing to do with pay.

Maybe you should add DUH! to the end of your posts, because you don't seem to understand anything that someone else writes.

Instead of philosophy try studying humanity.

ACK!

	18-04-2003 03:16									#19
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On the other connotation of "women and payment," you better believe we all pay a price. We simply encourage some forms of payment and discourage others.

But, in the value-free world of liberalism, all forms of payment should be accepted, not so?

	18-04-2003 03:17									#20
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Actually one market solution to the childbearing problem is surrogacy and equal paid parental leave for women and men. Of course surrogacy raises a load of ethical problems.

Problem is that some women think they have the right to bear their own children and don't see why they should be financially punished for doing so.

	18-04-2003 03:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Maybe you should read more carefully, I believe women should be paid the same regardless. Having babies should have nothing to do with pay. Maybe you should add DUH! to the end of your posts, because you don't seem to understand anything that someone else writes. Instead of philosophy try studying humanity. ACK!

Stop. Sorry - the only part of that post that applies to you is the last sentence - which was a joke because of your pigs remark. I wasn't accusing you of anything else..

The problem is that having and raising children does contribute a great deal to society. It means that we can all have a retirement income for one thng. But no one gets paid to do it because it can't be turned into a market. That's my point.

	18-04-2003 03:25									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Stop. Sorry - the only part of that post that applies to you is the last sentence - which was a joke because of your pigs remark. I wasn't accusing you of anything else.. The problem is that having and raising children does contribute a great deal to society. It means that we can all have a retirement income for one thng. But no one gets paid to do it because it can't be turned into a market. That's my point.

Very well, I'm sorry as well, you might want to add to when you are joking.

I agree with you on that point, raising children does contribute to society, but in an intangible way. There really couldn't be a formula for raising children.

Should women the raise children to be doctors and scientist, and yes, even philosophers , be paid the same as the woman who raises children that eventually become criminals?

There is no way to tell what a child will become, so how can you set a fair price?

ACK!

	18-04-2003 03:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Very well, I'm sorry as well, you might want to add to when you are joking. I agree with you on that point, raising children does contribute to society, but in an intangible way. There really couldn't be a formula for raising children. Should women the raise children to be doctors and scientist, and yes, even philosophers , be paid the same as the woman who raises children that eventually become criminals? There is no way to tell what a child will become, so how can you set a fair price? ACK!

I suppose it will just have to be the same for all, since pricing is out (no real market and all that).

It's a thorny problem and I don't really have a convincing answer (well that convinces me at any rate).

	18-04-2003 03:31									#24
	Re: Women and payment? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ADG Why is there a difference in the wage between women and men? If they are hired to do the same job, shouldn't they also get the same wage? I know lots of women who works harder/better than the males at their working place, but still they get less payed than the men... Why's that? If they work harder/better than guys, then why doesn't they get more money than them? Or atleast the same amount?

While in college I took a whole class on gender roles and relations in which we covered the supposed "Female Wage Gap" which the National Organization of Women (NOW) claims exists. NOW claims that women only make 70% of what men make and they arrived at this number by taking the national average income women make and comparing it to the national income men make which is total garbage since it doesn't control for education, industry type, experience, etc.

The national labor relations board (part of the Labor Department) did a study in the early 1990s which controlled for all these factors (i.e. compared people in the same industry who had the same types of degrees from similar types of schools, who worked in the same cities, who had the same amount of experience) and they found a wage gap did exsist but that it was only around 2% instead of the 30% NOW claimed. The Department of Labor attributed the 2% difference to things like men being more willing to ask their boss for a raise, men are often more willing to switch employers or relocate, and men are often more willing to cut family time in order to work extra hours.

	18-04-2003 03:36									#25
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I think women should be paid the same as men working under the same conditions. However, they should have guarantees concerning their carreer when they leave to raise their babies, and welfare should pay them a significant amount of money for this period.

	18-04-2003 03:36									#26
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Isn't it a greater gap among women with no degree?

	18-04-2003 03:38									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think women should be paid the same as men working under the same conditions. However, they should have guarantees concerning their carreer when they leave to raise their babies, and welfare should pay them a significant amount of money for this period.

I agree that would be nice. The problem is it may produce perverse outcomes. People will start having too many children and women with no employment prospects will have one after another (this happens in New Zealand - I suppose it would stop if we blokes could stop ourselves impregnating them all the time).

	18-04-2003 03:41									#28
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quote: People will start having too many children and women with no employment prospects will have one after another.

How many is too many, Agathon?

	18-04-2003 03:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I think women should be paid the same as men working under the same conditions. However, they should have guarantees concerning their carreer when they leave to raise their babies, and welfare should pay them a significant amount of money for this period.

I thought you were a communist? Payment has nothing to do with the value of the output, but the need of the individual.

Women with children should be paid more than women without children. Men with drug problems need to be paid the most.

	18-04-2003 03:46									#30
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 How many is too many, Agathon?

In a rational market system people would weigh up their options as to how much a kid would cost them and have that many. If they don't have to pay for it, there will be free rider problems since the cost isn't absorbed by the user. We don't want people to have too many children, otherwise we adults would spend even more of our lives working to support an ever expanding welfare system.

(yes I am still a communist).