19-04-2003 02:12									#31
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Agreed Aeson....the next 2 turns will be telling. I do not think we should commit to any flanking plans until we find out what the big force approaching plans to do. Once they commit themselves to a course of action, we will be much more free to act, and the more turns that pass, the less of a pinch we'll be in. IIRC, we've got 4 new units coming online next turn, and it only gets better from there.

-=Vel=-

	19-04-2003 04:05									#32
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I love the plan. If we time it right, we could deflect the focus an entire wave of immortals (best case) or at least half a wave (better case?).

But untill this first wave is at least reduced to half its size, and we know the outcome of the next 2 or 3 turns, It is far too much to commit when your heartland is at stake.

I would favor getting a gallay heading up that way with at least a pike or two NOW to sever the iron. It could help to further distract some forces. The settler and other three pikes can arrive shortly and build a town called Storm Front. I would like to see it founded simultaneous to the fall of D'ville..... We should also rename D'ville Thunderclap

How's that for momentum.... and psy-war...

But first we must decimate the foul invaders

Mss

Last edited by ManicStarSeed on 19-04-2003 at 04:13

	19-04-2003 07:10									#33
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Unless they are leaving large forces along the road as guards...

The only Immortals immediately able to counter the landing at Inchon on turn 1 would be the garrison at Eliopolis (max 1 Immortal unless they are paranoid and have many Immortals to burn). And then, the break in the road most likely would stop any forces from Eliopolis from contesting the landing on turn 1 (if the GoW shots have any truth to them).

If the road situation is accurate, then the only forces able to get next to Inchon for a turn 2 attack would be those who started in Eliopolis. If we play it right, we have walls up at the start of our turn 2, then Inchon is a very good, nay, a great investment.

However, that is far in the future. The Eastern landings are more realistically possible in the near term. Although, they will not happen too soon either, unless we: a, win big at Arashi next turn and b, wish to put Pike on Gallies that are advancing into an enemy fleet.

Realistically, the Galley which could be used for a transport, advancing behind the 2 Gallies who seek a decision in combat with Vox, comes up at Sufa in 4 turns. Coincidentally, that's about the time we might start having some spare Pikes to go adventuring with.

	19-04-2003 07:22									#34
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That wouldn't be consistent with what we know (or are pretty sure we know) about the situation in general (large forces to guard the roads). As I see it, given the state of our defenses ("weak" as compared to Vox's "strong"), they're planning to bulldog over us with everything they have in hopes that they can put enough pressure toward our core that we will fold up like a house of cards. If this reading is accurate (and we have every reason to believe it is, with still better information coming as of this turn, which *should* reveal still more combat forces as their "next wave" should be appearing on the mountains north of Monsoon this turn, next at the latest (I hope it's next, cos it buys us another turn, but my fear is that it will not be)....anyway, if the assessment is correct, then any newly trained enemy troops are heading south with all possible speed, as they're completed, and precious little thought is currently being given to defense.

If I put myself in their shoes, and given the production advantages we have over them long-term, that's what I'd do.....say h*ll with defense and hurl everything I had at you in hopes of swamping your capabilities before you could build up to par, and beyond.

-=Vel=-

	19-04-2003 07:44									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx ... As I see it, given the state of our defenses ("weak" as compared to Vox's "strong"), they're planning to bulldog over us with everything they have in hopes that they can put enough pressure toward our core that we will fold up like a house of cards. If this reading is accurate... then any newly trained enemy troops are heading south with all possible speed, as they're completed, and precious little thought is currently being given to defense. If I put myself in their shoes, and given the production advantages we have over them long-term, that's what I'd do.....say h*ll with defense and hurl everything I had at you in hopes of swamping your capabilities before you could build up to par, and beyond.

I believe that we agree, and that it is highly unlikely that they would have forces on hand sufficient to threaten Inchon prior to our completion of walls, let alone to threaten the settler.

	19-04-2003 08:52									#36
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I *mostly* agree that the northern Vox lands are bereft of defense.

My guess is they have Warriors... how many, I don;t know... and the risk is dependent on their supply of gold.

And that, my friends, is a total wild card. Assume the worst.

	19-04-2003 13:59									#37
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Why are we so certain they do all the upgrading in Dissville?
On the pics we got so far from GOw, both showed units(immortals) north of of Dissville.
They even have said themselves (ok, no the best source ), they were gonna build a spear in Dissville, but I think it is the thruth.
The barracks are located in Eliopolis IMHO.

	19-04-2003 15:10									#38
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Alva, that could very well be true. I don't think I would risk it at D-ville, the main idea is that they somewhere pillaged their road to most of their cities, so they could build warriors and upgrade in the same turn, an keep doing it.

The immortals in GoW screenies are no guarantee, though, nobody says that those aren't defensive immortals they move to the front, just because they see, or fear, that we will not fold so easily. A few turns ago, those immortals could protect the Northern coast, where they are now less needed. Or they may even follow GoW's galley.

In any case, building Inchon would make it possible for us to disturb that, and to get a beach head close to their core. It's the boldness of the plan I can appreciate, they would never expect something like that, even if they spot 2 galleys on the way in.

BTW, is it possible for us to get there unspotted, maybe by using one more turn in the sea waters? Surprise is what we need, if they see us 2 turns in advance, there will be troops defending the area, and troops on the hill. The only possible reason that we can land on the hill is they don't know beforehand that we're approaching, so we should avoid being spotted at D-ville, or somewhere along the way.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 17:27									#39
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The latest from the vox information ministry would either indicate that they've continued thru the mountains toward Arashi, and plan to attack it next turn (most likely), or have stepped off toward Monsoon, and plan to take it next turn (not likely).

So far, so good....

-=Vel=-

	19-04-2003 19:01									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO BTW, is it possible for us to get there unspotted, maybe by using one more turn in the sea waters?

Brilliant... put that damn GLight to use!

	19-04-2003 19:31									#41
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Actually, I would make it a double attack: use those 2 galleys on the East (or whatever is left of them after we take out their galley) to advance, clearly in sight, towards the iron, meanwhile approaching silently from the West. The Eastern ones can be empty, and if we can keep out of sight, they will never expect the surprise. It's not exactly the most obvious thing to build 3-4 galleys while a SoD of immortals is approaching your core cities, they can expect a few galleys, but not that much.

DeepO

	19-04-2003 19:58									#42
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Even better... and possibly aided by the possible ceasefire!!

	19-04-2003 20:04									#43
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Indeed....a couple extra turns on the ceasefire gives us that much more time to bulk up a potential seaward attack....I'm diggin' this plan more and more!

-=Vel=-

	20-04-2003 01:34									#44
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This is not the time to send that force. As Aeson pointed out they will most likely gain more Immortals the next few turns than we gain Pikes at the front (by about double).

Besides, the boats to do it do not exist yet.

Meanwhile, we can use 2 Pikes and the Eastern Fleet with an extra Galley to cut their Iron much sooner than Inchon could be launched.

	21-04-2003 20:53									#45
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Just to make myself clear, I am in no way suggesting we should not use our east coast galleys to bring up troops to cut the iron and/or destroy their colony.

My plan has more to do with setting up our invasion of Estonia than cutting their iron supply. Hence, it isn't going to happen for a while.

-Arrian

	21-04-2003 21:10									#46
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I wouldn't be so sure. Having a city there, with a road connection to D-ville makes it a lot easier to get to that city, instead of going over the spines ourselves. But yes, there are some better ways(albeit a bit more predictable) to cut their iron.

Anyway, when are we going to strike back? If their invasion force gets dealt with in the next 2-3 turns, we would be good to strike back swiftly, instead of giving them the opportunity to build up more defenders.

DeepO

	21-04-2003 22:00									#47
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Well, it all depends on how things go in the next turn or two (how many casualties they take, versus how many we take).

Once we break their invasion stack, we need to try to cut their iron and/or set up the "Inchon" operation. Some of that also depends on how our galleys do. If we gain naval superiority, it makes landings a lot less risky.

Meanwhile, we can decide if we want to try and march a footslogger stack up the Spinebreakers toward Diss, send fastmovers up the desert, or both.

-Arrian

	21-04-2003 22:00									#48
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Whenever we strike back, we need to have highly crystalized objectives, and design a sufficient force for the task.

Offhand, I would put our short-term offensive objectives at (in no particular order)

1) Elimination of all Voxians inside our cultural borders

2) Proper garrisoning of all cities (especially coastal cities, in the event of shenanigans by GoW, and not purely defensive garrisons, either. If they land, we should have forces at the ready to deal with them immediately)

3) Cutting the Iron Suppy/gaining control of the Iron Colony

4) Capture of Dville

5) Securing/controlling the choke point (Inchon landing)

After that....we build up enough heavy hitters to take every city they've got....

-=Vel=-

	21-04-2003 22:04									#49
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Heh, crosspost with Vel.

Regarding marching on Dissidentville, I just had a look at the most recent screenshot (turn thread, page 3) and it seems to me that the safest route would be to march up the mountains (2, 2 and 2 of Dissidentville) with a stack of pikes/med inf/workers, roading as they go. Then bring up WCs via the road and lay the smack down.

At the same time, I'd like to be making the Inchon landing, or at least do something on the east coast, as Aeson has suggested.

-Arrian

	21-04-2003 22:06									#50
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RE: coastal garrisons... We should probably post 2-4 WCs near the west coast to deal with any potential landings, but once we have more galleys out roaming the seas (keep in mind, only we can do that), we have a much better warning system.

-Arrian

	21-04-2003 22:14									#51
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Sounds like a plan....now, let's just give them a pasting they won't soon forget at Arashi and get this show on the road!

-=Vel=-

	21-04-2003 22:27									#52
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I'd like to see a Pike in every other Coastal city. That way they can scramble and protect all threatened cities in the event a landing is spotted approaching. It's not yet time to assign them there though.

Eventually, we want them all covered.

	21-04-2003 22:31									#53
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I concur with that, NYE. Posting them inbetween the cities would allow them to cover multiple cities, while also cutting down on landing sites.

AFAIK, you cannot land troops in an undefended city via ship (unless they are berserks/marines), so if you have pikes on the coastal tiles next to our cities (defensive bonus tiles should have priority, to deny them as landing spots), we limit where an enemy can land. We can then position our reaction forces (WCs) appropriately, so that they can respond immediately.

That's something that can be done bit by bit going forward, but I think we all agree that the majority of our pikes are going to be needed to invade Vox.

-Arrian

	21-04-2003 22:38									#54
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Very true, and we can no doubt delay any serious reinforcement of west-coast cities, but as we are able, it's something we should not neglect.

With our production advantages, we should be in decent shape to pay at least a token nod to defense while prepping to bust Vox's chops....cheap insurance against cheap shots by unnamed Bobians who would love to join the party.

-=Vel=-

	21-04-2003 22:48									#55
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Getting back to the initial idea, what if we landed a settler and some pikes next to their colony, and settled there? It would mean the iron falls into our hands without us having to fight for it. It's basically the same as pillaging their road, with the exception that we would have a city where we later want one, and I don't think they will protect the grass on that side of the mountain to stop us from landing. I can certainly see them blocking (with warriors even) the road, so that we can't land directly on that, and need to fight before we have a road we can pillage. In that case, it would save us a turn.

We will need enough pikes to keep that city, as it is in a terrible position when facing immortals (surrounded on land by mountains), but it should be a fun maneuver to perform

DeepO

	21-04-2003 23:10									#56
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DeepO,

Holding that city would be much more difficult than holding a city on a hill, with flat land and 1 hill next to it (my proposed city site). And it offers much less than a city near Eliopolis does in terms of setting up our invasion of Estonia.

-Arrian

	24-04-2003 07:34									#57
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If what I expect to happen if and when we gain the upper hand happens... that is that the Vox Immortals park in the mountains and dare us to dig them out... then Inchon would be the most cost effective means of convincing them to move. That is still a long way away, and cutting their Iron off would be one of the things we need to do to gain the upper hand.

Operation Iron Denial sooner, then Inchon later.

That is my thinking.

	24-04-2003 18:19									#58
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I'm fine with that approach, NYE.

-Arrian

	24-04-2003 18:45									#59
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Ahhhh, but you guys musta forgotten that we got Romulan technology 12 turns ago, and have those 156 cloaked Medievals sitting not far from Hurricane.....

-=Vel=-

	24-04-2003 19:24									#60
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You know what sucks most about PBEM? You don't get to see the battles if you're the defender.

Sure, you can deduce what happened, but you don't get the play-by-play.

In the one PBEM game I actually played long enough to fight a war, that really irritated me (partial remedy was found by calling my "enemy" on my cell phone and hearing his dismay as he lost half his army).

I'm DYING for news from the front!

-Arrian