20-04-2003 18:45									#1
	Would Stalin's Russia have joined the axis? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If Hitler had offered? If so, would the allies have cut a deal? Could Germany hold off the allied airforces with all its effort focused on aircraft production, pilot training in Russia, plenty of fuel etc...

Also, this would link Japan to Germany. Could the Germans have helped Japan in any way?

Nukes, hmm. Berlin gets nuked?

	20-04-2003 18:47									#2
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Ahhh, for the "could have beens".

	20-04-2003 18:48									#3
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The allies would have lost the war if they had, plain and simple. Had the European war not been on 2 fronts, Britain would have fallen.

	20-04-2003 18:55									#4
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If Hitler hadn't been afraid of water, Britain would have fallen.

	20-04-2003 19:00									#5
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But don't bad things happen when Panzers go underwater?

	20-04-2003 19:01									#6
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If Russia had been part of the axis, does anyone think that Russia and Japan could have launched an invasion of the US?

	20-04-2003 19:03									#7
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Zulu- it's difficult to say, Russia never showed any interest in invading the United States - but then, had they been part of the Axis they might have done differently.

	20-04-2003 19:10									#8
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Surely Russia could have 'liberated' () Alaska? Especially with Japan keeping the US busy in the Pacific.
Canada might have been uneasy about sending men and arms to Europe with the Soviets on their border.
Australia could have felt the same with the US unable to concentrate only on the Japanese in the east.

	20-04-2003 19:12									#9
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No. Hitler and Stalin hated each other's guts.

	20-04-2003 19:12									#10
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Seeing as the axis was the anti-communist (anti-comintern) pact, I struggle to see how they could be part of the axis when they are communist...

That's like a black man in the KKK... just like blazing saddles

	20-04-2003 19:23									#11
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DarthVeda... Azazel

Stalin and Hitler hated each other. And the political ideologies were in direct conflict. The only way Russia would have joined the Axis is if the Allies attacked Russia. And that would not have happened.

	20-04-2003 21:14									#12
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The whole point of the invasion of Poland was to gain a border on the USSR to prepare for an invasion. The DoWs by the Western were merely a sideshow for what was really planned all along, the overthrow of the Communist state.

Stalin himself was also planning to attack the Nazis. They were building their forces and prearing for a invasion around 1944-5, which is when they finally did invade Germany.

	20-04-2003 22:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon But don't bad things happen when Panzers go underwater?

Isn't that why they invented the snorkel?

	20-04-2003 22:23									#14
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Actually, Hitler did offer to have Stalin join the axis. Between the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact and Operation Barbarossa there was a veneer of freindly relations. The neogitiations fell through however, because in the neogtiations to split up the world, Stalin wanted to get to take control of the Middle East. Hitler offered instead that Russia concentrate on expanding towards the Indian ocean, but Stalin Refused. Of course knowing these two they may well have ended up fighting each other eventually, but perhaps if Hitler had agreed that when the world was devided up Stalin would get the Middle East, then maybe Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia could have fought together against the UK. Churchill's best hope for the war was securing eventual Russian and American intervention; with Stalin on the Axis side who knows if he would have held on.

	20-04-2003 22:33									#15
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Anyone know of any WW2 scns for Civ 3 yet?

	20-04-2003 22:47									#16
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Don't forget that Communist and Nazis were mortal enemies much like capitalist v Communist. They only signed a non-agression treaty in the beginning because of mutual fear of one another. They would have never survived long as allies.

	20-04-2003 22:57									#17
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It's Soviet Union (or USSR), not Russia.

	20-04-2003 22:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sava DarthVeda... Azazel Stalin and Hitler hated each other. And the political ideologies were in direct conflict. The only way Russia would have joined the Axis is if the Allies attacked Russia. And that would not have happened.

Hmmmmm, you should reconsider this. In 1939 the USSR attacked Finnland. Allied (UK and France) General Staffs planned to help the Finnish Army. There are plans that suggest something like a aerial bombardment of the Baku and Grozny oil fields and - behold! - the invasion of Norway and parts of Sweden to support Finnland. What do you think the British anf French Soldiers would do in Narvik? Gone fishin´?

Interesting, isn´t it? The brave Allies attacking Scandinavia to support the anti-communist war of Finnland. Not to forget that many english politicians and a part of the British population saw the "young and strong" Nazis of Germany as some kind of anti-communist wall.

Think about this: In 1939/40 the Allies attacked Norway (Hitler had the plans for "Weserübung" not earlier than the Allies, Germany was simply faster in executing its plans ....), marched through Sweden and fought along with the Finnish Army against the USSR. Hitler ("Everything I do is directed against the Russians. If the West is to dumb to understand this I´ll have to smash the West with Russian aid and then turn against Russia.") ordered his army to withdraw from Poland and sent large forces to Finnland. After the formal withdrawal from Poland Germany signed a mutual military alliance with the Western Allies and fought together with the West against the USSR.

	20-04-2003 23:05									#19
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in all a much more horrid world

because people who never beleive about the holocaust

and Hitler's other crimes

Jon Miller

	21-04-2003 00:15									#20
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Do

you

really

think

so

Jon

?

jim, Hitler missed his big chance during the Soviet invasion of Finland, I agree. Hitler was strange. Sense enough to gain power in Germany, brains to pick the right plan for the invasion of France...but otherwise...cruel, bullying and fairly stupid. His ego got him maybe...

	21-04-2003 00:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel No. Hitler and Stalin hated each other's guts.

Not true AFAIK. Though you're correct in pointing out that Hitler had a low opinion of Stalin, (because he was a Slav) The Grey Blur idolized Hitler and at first refused to believe reports that the Nazis were invading Russia.

	21-04-2003 01:09									#22
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Hitler's plan was to conquer all of europe (except Britain whos empire he saw as the backbone of the modern world) and when that was acheived to launch another war and remove the communists.
He had no intention of attacking America and was only forced to declare war due to American provocation.

	21-04-2003 01:11									#23
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Imagine if Britain had decided to be part of the Axis...

	21-04-2003 01:14									#24
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quote: Not true AFAIK. Though you're correct in pointing out that Hitler had a low opinion of Stalin, (because he was a Slav)

Not correct.

quote: The Grey Blur idolized Hitler and at first refused to believe reports that the Nazis were invading Russia.

Stalin didn't idolize Hitler. he had his own calculations, and a scheme to conquer europe. He didn't believe the invasion, because it probably went against his castles in the sky.

	21-04-2003 01:45									#25
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Not a chance, Hitler's whole ideology was based on creating "Lebensraum" for the German race in the East. Slavic races were considered inferior and subject to extermination. Beside, both Hitler and Stalin were megalomaniac and backstabbing madmen.

	21-04-2003 10:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Stalin didn't idolize Hitler. he had his own calculations, and a scheme to conquer europe. He didn't believe the invasion, because it probably went against his castles in the sky.

Hard to say. AFAIK, Stalin knew that a war with Nazi Germany was inevitable. In fact, some argued that, when the Germans attacked in 1941, they caught lots of Soviet troops in forward positions because they were preparing for an attack of their own.

	21-04-2003 16:15									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Canuck Not true AFAIK. Though you're correct in pointing out that Hitler had a low opinion of Stalin, (because he was a Slav) The Grey Blur idolized Hitler and at first refused to believe reports that the Nazis were invading Russia.

Hitler had a low opinion of Stalin because he had a low opinion on anyone but his yes-men, this including his most brilliant commanders when they tried to wake him up from the dream he was living in since 1942. Arresting Heinz Guderian, his only modern general, for failiures that have come as a direct result of utter disregard of the intelligence reports ("we're outnumbered 11 to 1" - "rubbish, lies!") repeatedly shown by him exemplefies that.

Stalin did not idolize Hitler either. He was fascinated with him, that's a completely different thing. Stalin idlozed no one but himself and admired very few, all great army leaders, none failed austrian corporals.

	21-04-2003 21:47									#28
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Stalin was an ally to Hitler for some time; that Stalin probably waited for a proper time to attack Stalin is another thing