25-04-2003 02:32									#31
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quote: Originally posted by panag we should put at least 6 mercs out before anything else , ... just in case , ....

Before any more Settlers or Workers?


Dominae

	25-04-2003 02:33									#32
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , we should put at least 6 mercs out before anything else , ... just in case , .... have a nice day just two little tiny dollar cents

The problem with 6 NMs is that if we spent the time to build those we would have to completely neglect our growth. Right now we have a lot of jungle, a lot of crappy city sites, and a lot of unimproved tiles. We will have units in the south to watch for CDG (or even GCA) offensives at least 6+ turns in advance of them reaching our cities, which means we will have time to finish another 2/3 NMs by the time they arrive. I don't see them being able to launch a concerted attack for another 10+ turns, so by then we'll have 2+ NMs and the ability to make 2/3 more. If they can slice through a stack of 5 fortified NMs then the RNG gods have already designed our defeat.

Also, keep in mind that CDG's military is weak compared to ours. That means they have a few scouts around (at least Morris), and if they're not lying to us, some Spearmen. That puts a severe limit on the number of Immortals they could upgrade any time soon, even if they had the means to do so.

All told, I think we're pretty safe where we are, especially now that we have that 1st NM out.

	25-04-2003 03:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Before any more Settlers or Workers? Dominae

hi ,

no , in combination with them , before we build some serious buildings

have a nice day

	25-04-2003 03:38									#34
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quote: Originally posted by panag no , in combination with them , before we build some serious buildings

Apart from the Granary in Bananatopia, I agree with you.

Then again, someone should step in and make a case for a Culture building, because I'm typically not a fan of Culture.


Dominae

	25-04-2003 03:43									#35
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OK, Poly has not been working for me for about an hour or two, so I missed quite a lot of what was going on in this thread... being left alone, I was playing with the WF assignments. Let me propose something... I believe it is basically what Dominae mentioned few posts earlier:

Turn 42:

Apolyton:

• Size 4; Laborers 1, 3, 9, 33
  
• 0 Food, 0 Shields -> 2 Food, 6 Shields
  
• Production: Worker
  

	25-04-2003 03:45									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Apart from the Granary in Bananatopia, I agree with you. Then again, someone should step in and make a case for a Culture building, because I'm typically not a fan of Culture. Dominae

hi ,

well , a lot depends on the course we want to sail , .... are we going to be builders , warmongers , etc , .....

right now we need to set our base , secure it and start to build something so we can have modern day ( as far as possible ) troops , ....

have a nice day

	25-04-2003 03:54									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Ok, after some talk with vondrack, it seems like we can save 1 Commerce if we do things a bit differently (woo-hoo!): This turn: Apolyton Laborers at 1, 3, 9, 33 (SW, SE, NE, SE-SE)...the 9 tile could be any other pure Grassland tile Mingapulco Laborer at 6 (E) Bananatopia Laborer at 77 (NW-NW, the Game tile) Dominae

Just a very small change to this and to the schedule I posted... to minimize the number of labourer reassignments, I will make - for this turn - Apolyton work 9, 3, 33, 21 and leave Mingapulco working 99. The effect is exactly the same, as the two fully improved bonus grasslands between Apolyton and Mingapulco are interchangeable.

	25-04-2003 04:05									#38
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vondrack, thanks for putting some work into the queue for the next few turns.

I do not have time to look at it too closely right now (exam tomorrow), but there is one big thing that I disagree with: Apolyton is not growing every 4 turns, but every 5 turns. This is bad, since to benefit from our Granary we need to have Apolyton grow as fast as possible every cycle. I understand that you're trying to get enough food into Bananatopia to get it to size 2 so that the Worker may be completed there, but this should not take priority over the growth in Apolyton.


Dominae

	25-04-2003 04:52									#39
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I do not think Granary pays off only if Apolyton grows once in every 4 turns instead of 5. And, to be precise, we do not talk about every 4/5 turns - just this cycle and maybe the next one (we can still make Apolyton grow in 4 turns in the cycle after the current one, if we keep Apolyton working the game on turns 49&50), where one turn growth delay in Apolyton helps Banana to grow/produce worker one turn faster (and where another Settler gets built one turn faster in Apolyton)... which, IMHO, effectively translates into the same thing as if Apolyton grew one turn faster. Granary pays off all the time - it just means Apolyton needs half as many stored food to grow... anything not stored in Apolyton is stored somewhere else... even if effectively at "half-value" compared to food stored in Apolyton.

But then, I am not the MoI... it was just an idea... the MoI thread shows orders only up to Turn 44, so it is a little bit difficult to "see" whether the proposed orders are fine or not - and especially what the very goals are... I would like to see the official MoI build queues showing we can achieve our goals faster and more effectively than, for example, in what I proposed here. I want to see SOMETHING I could at least try to understand with my own mind - I do not think Consuls are supposed to just "carry out" what our ministers suggest. I think we are supposed to always evaluate what they suggest and then choose (if there is something to choose from) the option we consider best. At this moment, with all respect due, I am sorry to say the MoI schedule forces us (or me, at least) to mostly "blindly believe" things will be fine...

I would like to know what the plan is, what we put emphasis on... I mean, where do I learn that our primary goal is to have Apolyton grow every 4 turns and not 5? And why? I apologize if these things are "simply natural" or "known to everybody" - I may be the very last one not knowing... so bear with me, please.

Rereading the orders again, I admit I am simply unable to determine, whether our goal is to build a Settler in Apolyton as fast as possible after the Worker, or if our goal is to time its completion properly to Apolyton growing to pop something, or if our goal is to make Apolyton grow as fast as possible, no matter what, or what the hell we are trying to achieve...

Silly rant over.

Good luck with your exam, Dom!

	25-04-2003 05:12									#40
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vondrack,

1. It is difficult to plan things too far in advance. The queue you proposed, if adopted, would probably be changed at least 3 times before the turns were played out. I'm only coming to terms with this now.

2. In Turn 40, I posted a "short-term plan", which you may or may not have seen. I plan to make those the bridge between the nitty-gritty details and what people actually want to know. Yes, I have a general plan, and I believe you're aware of what it is. However, asking for any more detail than that puts us down to the level of queues. Again, I dare not plan these too far in advance. I guess you'll just have to take my word for it that I've played this scenario out many many times already, and am confident in our general strategy. The specifics may need to be turn by turn.

3. I'm glad you're paying closer attention now. I understand that it must be annoying to have to "take orders" from the MoI without being able to see too far in advance. But I think you should appreciate how difficult it is to come up what a stable plan for any further than 5 turns from now. That said, now that we've got defense under control and things seem to be calm with CDG, I may be able to confidently extend the queues to about 10-15 turns.

4. Concerning the growth of Apolyton: as our current Settler/Worker pump, it is very important for Apolyton's Food box to be as large as possible. This allows our capital to be as productive as possible, while losing pop points every so often (sounds counter-intuitive, I know). However, since Apolyton will probably be working nothing more than a normal Grassland the next time it reaches size 4, your idea of giving Food to Bananatopia just this once is probably a good one. But I have no time to check this now, so take all my criticisms with a grain of salt.


Dominae

	25-04-2003 05:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I would like to know what the plan is, what we put emphasis on...

This is too high level for the MoI...just kidding!

Plan/Emphasis:

1. Growth in Apolyton
2. Settlers/Workers from Apolyton
3. Units from Mingapulco, with Workers when size permits
4. Production/Granary in Bananatopia

We've had to slow down number 4, since we were running behind on Workers (due to some miscommunication). But the general idea is still there.

If you want to go even higher level, here's "the plan":

1. Satisfy the MoW with a sufficient number of military units.
2. Get as many Workers as possible to chop down that Jungle.

Really, our start has put us into this course of action; I see no other realistic/workable alternative (Archer rush? Culture focus?).


Dominae

	25-04-2003 19:11									#42
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MOW orders for turn 43 are up (posted here since there's no turn 43 thread yet).

Things have shaped up nicely in the last couple turns with Hagbart becoming elite and our first NM. Our scouting is almost finished in the east, and our Warrior screen will soon be in place. All said and done, I'm quite pleased with the current situation and the plans for the future.

Now, let's find us some iron...